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Discussion, Displeasure and Duplicity (or Why Bloggers Must Have Thick Skin)

Looking for The Lactivist? She's retired. But you CAN still find Jen blogging. These days, she's runs A Flexible Life. Join her for life, recipes, projects and the occasional rant.

Tuesday, May 01, 2007

It's been said many times that I have a thick skull. (I'm the last one to deny that.)

But this past week, it's been proven once again, that to blog, you must have thick skin.

I'd imagine that many of you who came in last week, read Morgan Gallagher's piece about breastfeeding and our culture and then went on your merry way. If you did, then woo-whee have you missed a firestorm.

While I certainly didn't agree with all of Gallagher's comments (I noted early on in the comments that I disagreed that breasts were not sexual and that I disagreed that being white is the absence of being black) I agreed with her emphasis that we need to change the debate from an issue of feeding choices to one of the absolute human right of a child to receive the best form of comfort and nourishment possible. (I've also written a post in the past that addressed this very issue.)

Specifically, I found great insight and a powerful call to action in passages like this one:

Tobin has an inalienable human right here that is being denied. The right of a human child to human milk, to nurture and nourish when its psychobiology requires it.

The offended onlooker does not have any rights to be protected. The offended onlooker has a personal issue, a feeling of discomfort and unease, that requires handling. A cultural dissonance, that needs acknowledged,
responded to, engaged with and hopefully smoothed away. The nursing dyad has no such personal issue in this paradigm. The nursing dyad is not operating out of a cultural context. The nursing dyad has supreme importance and protection in this scenario.

There is a simple truth here, that is so awesome and complete in its simplicity, that it's in danger of being overlooked: breastfeeding an infant is not a lifestyle choice. It is not a cultural convention. It is not a personal statement. It is a biological imperative. It is our essential nature. It is an essential element of our species, and the continuation of it. It is a biological norm.

We do not choose to breastfeed. We can choose not to. Likewise, we do not choose to breastfeed in public. We can choose not to. Breastfeeding is not a cultural construct. Not breastfeeding, is. Nursing an infant when the infant needs it, is a biological norm. Deciding that this needs to be done in a certain place, at a certain time, or in a certain way, is a cultural value.


Now, if you haven't been following the comments on that post, you may be wondering where I'm going with this. So I'll tell you...

The following snippet from her post has set off an absolute firestorm:

Quite often, when this sort of thing is discussed, someone will say "Would you ask a black person to go eat in their room if someone else was offended?" and a huge debate will fall open about whether or not that was an appropriate thing to say. One side will scream its not appropriate to reference colour, the other will say "Why not?" and off the merry go round will go.

This started with comments calling the post racist, escalated to posts calling Gallagher herself racist and then pushed even further to insulting me and calling me racist for publishing it. (and to insulting my intelligence, as if the poster has had a personal view of the diplomas hanging on my wall...)

I find that sad. Not because my feelings are hurt. I have thick skin, I can take it. More so because insults are one of the fastest ways to shut conversation down. In fact, being on the receiving end of an insult is often the fastest way to decide that you couldn't care less what the insulter has to say.

I don't want to see that happen. I think there's great opportunity here for educating and for finding ways to come together to work toward a common goal. It's certainly worked in the past.

But that can't happen without respectful discourse.

Sure, it's easy for one side to state that Gallagher's post was not respectful. In many ways, I agree with them. While I understand the comparison she made and why she made it (more on this later) I also understand that for those who have lived the struggle, it's belittling. This does nothing for the breastfeeding cause because it shuts down lines of communication that desperately need to stay open.

Now that said, I'd ask if what I can only assume was a well-intentioned, yet poorly placed comparison is grounds for ending dialogue and hurling insults. After all, who among us has never unintentionally hurt someone's feelings or insulted them? I know I've done it. If you are reading this and haven't, then I congratulate you...I know few people that have made it through life without inadvertently causing offense.

But with that in mind and with the posts calling Gallagher a racist adding spark to the fire, I have to point out the following lines from Gallagher's post:

To discriminate against someone on the basis of colour, is to discriminate on their essential biology. It is to discriminate against their right to exist: it impinges on their human rights. There is no logic, rhyme or reason to such discrimination. It is a cultural construct imposing lunacy on the essential nature of humans. No one decides to be black. It is not a cultural concept. It is not a lifestyle choice. It is an essential artefact of human biology. It is.

So in all sincerity, I ask...does an unfortunate analogy override the sentiments above? Does the fact that Gallagher (and at times myself) use an analogy that angers some within the black community negate the heart and soul of a person's thoughts and beliefs?

Does using a bad analogy make you a racist?

Because honestly, the idea that it would or does astounds me.

But with that analogy in mind, let me try and shed some light on why it is that white women in the lactivist community often turn to that example.

Breastfeeding is a normal, natural part of life. It's the way we were designed to function and as Gallagher points out, it is not a "lifestyle choice." At least not anymore than kissing a boo boo or giving your child a hug is. Yes, you can choose not to do it, but there's little arguing that breastfeeding is at the biological core of mothering.

With that in mind, when anti-NIP types get going, their first argument is generally that they don't want to see it and therefore, they should not have to see it. This line of thinking comes about due to the belief that their personal comfort level ranks higher than the rights of the mother-child pair to engage in a natural, healthy function.

Analogies are powerful in debate. They often allow people to view something in a way that they never have before. It opens eyes, it gives people a way to relate. Thus, analogies are sought.

When it comes to creating an analogy for the nursing dyad, things get difficult.

The fact remains that no one in the United States has the right to not be offended. Seeing, hearing and reading things that we dislike are par for the course of life in these United States.

So, the mind whirls with ideas of what to compare it to.

There are things that people find distasteful...chewing with one's mouth open, smoking, body odor. The problem is that these things are intrinsically offensive in our culture. Comparing breastfeeding to them denigrates the act and lowers it to something intrinsically offensive that must be tolerated.

So instead, people seek to find situations that are NOT intrinsically offensive, but that offend certain people due to their own personal issues.

Being a minority, being handicapped, having a different faith, speaking a different language...none of these things are offensive, yet some people would rather not deal with them. That's not ok.

As such, breastfeeding advocates seek to lift breastfeeding to a level that most people can understand by using an analogy that no one should have a problem with. After all, what kind of person do you have to be to refuse service to someone based on their color, creed or physical ability?

Now, with that out of the way, I want to make very clear that I understand why some of those close to the heart of the issue of racism are upset. I understand why you feel that it devalues your cause. After all, while women ARE discriminated against, refused service and denied employment options due to their choice to bear children and breastfeed, there is still a choice involved.

So is this comparison racist? Absolutely not. Is it insensitive? Probably.

I would ask though (and I ask this of all readers, not simply my non-Caucasian readers)...what comparison can we use? What analogy can we build off of that gets the point across without lessening the very real oppression that some have experienced through history? How do we move this debate forward? How do we explain the very real right of a nursing mother and child to exist in the public eye despite some people's dislike of the act?

Beyond that, I would also ask how conversation can move forward when the response to someone using an analogy that you don't like is to call them a "clueless bint" or a "whiny white woman" that fights for "dumb ass causes."

After all, any offense I created was inadvertent. There's no denying the intent when someone posts to question your education, state that people have grounds to call you a racist and to dub you a "clueless bint." I could also argue that fighting for the right of a mother to nurture her child without being removed from a plane because someone didn't like it is hardly a "dumb ass cause."

On the other hand, there were posters that make pointed arguments against the use of the race analogy in a much more productive manner.

There's room for this conversation to go forward. There are opportunities to educate, to enlighten and to work toward understanding. I'm up for it and I offer up this post as starting ground, but I'll make one thing clear...

This blog is not a democracy. It's a "me-ocracy." I'm up for debate and conversation but not for name calling and insults, no matter who you direct them toward. In fact, while I've published every comment received up to this point, I'm done with that. If you want to hurl insults, do it on your own bandwidth. The conversation can't move forward while people are busying hurling insults.

So share your thoughts, your reasons, your experience, your ideas and your outrage. Offer up suggestions, solutions and ideas. But know that if your comment hurls insults at anyone (myself, the author or another poster) I'm not publishing it.

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  1. Blogger Jennifer | 12:51 PM |  

    Eliat, you let your comment for this thread on the asthma study thread. I can't move them, so you'll need to repost it. I still have a copy of it if you want to email me.

  2. Anonymous t | 12:57 PM |  

    *standing ovation* well said, jennifer!

    my suggestion for a different analogy: obese people. i know that i personally have issues with the morbidly obese. (its something i'm working on.)

  3. Blogger Eilat | 1:05 PM |  

    Wow! Im shocked at the direction that this conversation went. I left a comment early on and followed the thread for a few days. I had no idea...

    I find it interesting that the sensitivity level of people can be so incredibly different. I really loved the piece. When reading the 2 paragraphs regarding race I did think "well... not really..." but the rest of it was such a fresh perspective that I felt compelled to email it to my dear friend and fellow lactivist (who happens to be black) who left a very positive comment.

    To me, the comment "white is actually the absence of being black" seemed like something that, if anything, might anger white people (as comment #10 pointed out). So I was really surprised to see the opposite reaction.

    Also, the article never equated the kind of discrimination experienced by breastfeeding moms and black people. That would be crazy. The point was about how wrong it is to deny someone something that can't be denied.

  4. Anonymous Anonymous | 1:06 PM |  

    Did everyone WHY being black was being compared to breastfeeding? Everyone seemed to go way off the deep end....she wasn't compairing the plight of breastfeeding WOMEN to the plight of slaves fighting for freedom! The author was plainly stating that Breastfeeding is NORMAL just like being black, white, brown, tan whatever...is NORMAL....both are created the way GOD intended them, so to descriminate against either one is against what is normal, natural, GOOD.....Not that Rosa Parks and Sally Breastfeeder are on the same footing.

    Amazing article.

  5. Blogger Michelle | 1:10 PM |  

    Why the need to make an analogy at all? Stick to it being a child's right to eat. This insistence on comparing it to race or weight or any other unrelated topic will only further weaken your argument. For the record, just because teh comparison doesn't strike you as racist? That doesn't make it any less offensive or bigoted.

    While you're examining this issue, examine why so many white lactivists are willing to alienate black nursing mothers? We're all women, and while some women may indeed face discrimination based on breastfeeding, all women of color experience racism along with misogyny. Why the willingness to contribute to their obstacles?

  6. Blogger Jennifer | 1:22 PM |  

    Michelle,

    I thought I explained the need to make an analogy. Yes, the discussion can take place without one, but it's often helpful in certain situations to be able to do so.

    I guess I also don't understand why the comparison is "racist." I understand that many feel it trivializes the history of the civil rights movement which is why I acknowledge that it's a poor analogy, but I still don't see why that makes it racist.

    Maybe you could tell me what you define as racism? I always thought that it was discrimination based on someone being a different race than the person doing the discriminating.

    You apparently either think it's more extensive than that or that the comparison itself is discriminatory. I'm just trying to figure out which it is.

    Can you also elaborate on what you mean by alienating black nursing mothers? Do you mean alienating them by using an analogy that turns them off/angers them, or do you mean something else? If it's the former, then I agree with you and with that understanding, can assure you that you wont' hear that analogy come from me again. If it's the latter, then I'd appreciate it if you'd share what you mean.

  7. Blogger Michelle | 1:38 PM |  

    It's aversive racism in action. Discrimination doesn't need to be overt in order for racist thoughts to take place. Look at it this way, why compare it to being black? Are you saying that black women don't breastfeed? It implies that black people are so separate that they don't have the same natural processes as white people. We're all human, so why further the othering that racism has already made a part of our society by framing arguments in a way that distances WOC further?

    Lactivism seems often to be framed as a white mother's issue and that framing is both offensive and harmful to the cause of encouraging every mother everywhere to breastfeed her child.

    The same critique is often held about feminism, because many WOC feel that white middle class politically active women are ignoring their issues or acting out of some sense of paternalism to tell them how to raise their children/operate in society/feel about racism and it's impact in their life.

  8. Blogger Jennifer | 1:48 PM |  

    Michelle,

    In reading your post, I can say that if that's how you are interpreting the intent, then I 100% agree with you that it's aversive racism and therefore, actual racism.

    But I obviously have a hard time seeing some of the jumps that it seems like you are making. (Well, in terms of when I use the analogy they are actual jumps since I don't intend the things that you are saying...I can't speak for Gallagher's intentions.)

    What I mean is...why the comment about being black and breastfeeding being to exclusive states of being? Where did I (or, for that matter, Gallagher) ever say that black women don't breastfeed?

    What I was comparing was not breastfeeding mothers verses black people, but rather being discriminated against period. It's not ok to kick someone out becuase of the color of their skin. It's also not ok to kick someone out becuase they are feeding their child.

    A matter of semantics? Perhaps, but do you at all agree that the intent does make a pretty big difference in how the sentiment is (or should be) recieved?

    Could you also expand on the idea of lactivism being "framed" as a white woman's issue. There are prominent black lactivist women online. Jennifer and Micky are doing an excellent job of framing the debate from a black woman's perspective. Obviously I can't speak to the issues of women of color as I'm white and have not lived their life. Thus, I do my best to speak to the issue of a child's right to eat.

    Also, You'll get no argument from me on feminism as I feel much the same way you do. Why I should trade having a man tell me what to do for having another woman tell me what to do is beyond me...

  9. Blogger Michelle | 2:00 PM |  

    My perspective about Gallagher is colored by the fact that I've gone round the mulberry bush with her before, and the end result was that she called Rosa Parks a sacred cow. I think in a text medium, intent really doesn't matter at all because no one knows you, so they can only go by your words.

    In terms of framing, unless I'm reading lactivist blogs by WOC it seems that many white lactivists practice that same aversive racism I mentioned earlier, they frame their analogies and their discussion from a footing of whiteness. There is a tendency to simply leave WOC out of the comments at all unless it is to decry the lower rates of breastfeeding in their cultures. There is no examination of why WOC may breastfeed for shorter periods, nor any examination of the impact of poverty on the ability to cope with breastfeeding and supporting a family.

  10. Blogger Jennifer | 2:08 PM |  

    Michelle, thanks for the input on your past conversation with Gallagher, quite honest, knowing that goes a LONG way toward helping me understand how we went from "good points to HOLY CRAP" in about five minutes on the first blog post. I'm not a mind reader, so I'm often left guessing why people appear to be jumping to conclusions when they're actually basing their thoughts on past experience.

    Beyond that, I'd ask if you read Micky and Jennifer's blogs? Both are excellent and are among my regular reads. I'd like to think that they are both doing a lot to help open this issue up to a wider audience.

    That said, I'd ask that you keep in mind that when you say we frame our discussion from a "footing of whiteness" that it's because...well...we're white. I've explained my reasoning for using that analogy and have said that now that we've entered this discussion, I won't use it again, but I hope you'll understand and realize that until someone engages me in dialogue about the experience of WOC, it's hard for me to see it from their perspective.

    In my mind, I'm not writing about white women, black women, latina women or any specific women. I'm writing about moms. It may not come across that way, but I'd like to find ways to make sure that ALL women are able to breastfeed freely, that ALL women have the legal right to express their breast milk no matter what job they have, that ALL women have access to good lactation resources and equipment.

    As for the lack of examination...not being black, how can I examine those issues beyond pure speculation? I can only examine them if WOC step forward and work with me to help me understand what their issues are and how I can help them fight for their rights as well.

    That's what makes this dialogue so critical...

  11. Blogger Michelle | 2:33 PM |  

    I do drop in on them both, though I disagree with Jennifer on the NIP front so I don't read her as often. It doesn't require WOC coming to you to discuss these things, you can seek out information on your own. Read works by Tim Wise, join anti-racist organizations, work toward actual equality. For that matter both Jennifer and Micky discuss these issues, engage in a dialogue with them.

  12. Blogger Sarahbear | 3:47 PM |  

    Hi Jennifer,

    I was one of the readers that simply read the blog and went on with my day, without batting an eyelash. One of the only things I noticed about the woman's style of writing was that she repeated herself several times in the article. That's probably the only thing that bothered me about it, considering I've got 4 children and I wish she'd have made her point sooner than she did.;)

    Anyway, to offer a suggestion for a different analogy, which would not alienate women of color, why not just compare it to being a woman?

    It singles no one out, because all mothers are women. Other analogies might make someone who suffers from that particular problem offended, like obesity might.

    As women, we're biologically designed to become pregnant, carry and bear children. As women, once we give birth, regardless of our feeding choice, our bodies still produce milk for quite some time.

    I'm sure that with your experience with writing you can find a much better way of expressing this analogy than I can.

  13. Blogger Judy | 5:24 PM |  

    Well, I don't see how it's a racist comparison, but I'm a white woman. A white woman who is a minority where I live, and who has very recently experienced discrimination based on that fact, but that's neither here nor there.

    I agree with the comparison to obesity, if an analogy is needed. Critics of breastfeeding deem it a choice, and one that many people are offended by. Obesity is, in the vast majority of cases (barring any true medical reason, of course, but those are rare), a choice - a choice to overeat, a choice to eat the wrong foods, a choice not to exercise, a choice not to seek out nutrition information. And it is one many are offended by. There is a lot of talk about discrimination against obese people and equal rights for people who are obese (should they have to buy 2 plane tickets if they take up 2 seats? is that discrimination), and so - in as much as breastfeeding and obesity are both framed as choices - that analogy, to me, is sound.

    Of course the problem will come with people who are thin and formula feed and are proud of both. Many will argue against both, I'm sure.

  14. Anonymous Your Mari | 5:42 PM |  

    You know, I am seriously mega-tired of white people saying they cannot possibly understand that durn negro (or any other POC) mindset.

    It is always, always, always 'why can't you do all the work for me and make it so i feel totally comfortable and don't ever ever have to question a single one of my racist assumptions?'

    Because your assumptions--racist. Google on 'double consciousness', on the fact that POC always have to see it from the white point of view whether they wish to or not. But whites can choose, and every single time they choose NOT to, just as you are doing right this second. You are choosing to put your hands over your ears and lalalala your way along in this discussion. And hey, you're white! YOU HAVE THAT PRIVILEGE. PRIVILEGE. a privilege is a thing granted, never earned. and whitefolk (such as yourself) are exceptionally uncomfortable with the idea that what they have in life is not necessarily earned.

    I should be flabbergasted that anyone at all had to spend two seconds of their freaking life explaining the racism and racist assumptions in this whole fiasco to you, but it is just another day in the life of white privilege.

    And I know in flinging round the word 'racist' that you will feel defensive and uncomfortable and not want to really look at the other words I've said. But maybe for two seconds you will look at black people as PEOPLE, same as you surely think of yourself and understand why they may not be all chipper about being used to further upperclass white womens' fantasies of victimisation.

    Or maybe this will be deleted/unapproved for being 'confrontational'. 'Angry'. Accurate.

  15. Anonymous Anonymous | 6:08 PM |  

    I am just stunned that this has turned into a war of racism...which the article clearly DID NOT cross boundries of in my opinion. Re-read the article! There are Historical periods and events maybe more appropriate like a women's right to vote? That seems a little more lateral maybe......

  16. Anonymous Anonymous | 7:10 PM |  

    what makes our skin color differ makes up less than 6% of our DNA. there are differences within "races" that are more significant and therefore- dividing people by that 6% difference is absurd, except most of us have sight, so that 6 % diff. is more noticeable than the percent of difference in our DNA that determines ear wax.
    It is difficult for some to understand the race is a cultural construct created to support capitalism and the like when that someone is being subjected to something that is very real and thriving - Racism.
    It's on the rise, we are diving people into even more "race" categories than ever before. The same conditioning that was used to colonize and enslave is once again at work and stronger than ever.

  17. Anonymous Anonymous | 7:35 PM |  

    Comparing isms isn't a good way to stress a point.
    It ends up diminishing at least one issue and comes off as disrespectful.
    If someone is offended by what you've said, it's worth it to examine what you've said and perhaps even make a correction and or apologize.
    good luck.
    signed,
    I'm too old for this.

  18. Blogger Jennifer | 7:49 PM |  

    Why would I delete it? I only said that I would delete posts that insulted people personally. You insulted an entire group of people.

  19. Anonymous Jennifer James | 8:03 PM |  

    As a black breastfeeding blogger, I wasn't offended in any way by Gallagher's essay.

    Here's my opinion.

  20. Blogger tiny-dog | 8:03 PM |  

    Good grief.

  21. Anonymous Julia | 8:22 PM |  

    Morgan Gallagher is currently being reviled in a place she holds a position of power in for that rant, Jennifer. It was actually deleted by another moderator in the LiveJournal community devoted to breastfeeding discussion due to overwhelming objection by other lactivists.

    Why you chose to repost it baffles me. Surely you could have made a much better, more eloquent statement about a child's right to eat without dragging bad analogies and false anthropological/biological statements into it. I'll say it again, the lactivist scene will be more credible when Morgan Gallagher leaves it, or at least remains silent. There are plenty of causes that are hurt by the vocal minority who espouse shock tactics and other approaches that invoke disgust from others. Why is this any different?

    It isn't.

  22. Blogger Heather | 9:05 PM |  

    I don't know how effective this analogy might be; it doesn't really cover breastfeeding-as-necessary, but it does make a valid comparison between formula and breastmilk. I'll throw it out there, and let you guys nitpick it. It's obviously not a perfect analogy (no such thing) and it's not supposed to cover all scenarios.

    I compare breastmilk to a Volvo, and formula to a Chevy.

    Both are good cars. They get you to work, they keep you safe in an accident, they're not likely to fall apart on you on the road. Both are affected by the quality of the ingredients.

    However, driving a Volvo is statistically safer. There are better safety rating, better track records, better craftsmanship.

    Does this mean you're a bad person for driving a Chevy? Whether you drive a Chevy because you can't afford a Volvo or because you don't want to (ugly things, after all!) is irrelevant, and nobody's business anyway.

    Absolutely not. Just means you made a different choice. Either you couldn't or you wouldn't.

    Shouting at the companies who certify vehicles that it's unfair and makes you guilty to see advertisements touting the Volvo's superior safety is ridiculous, and no one would do it. Why bother? Driving a Volvo doesn't somehow make you a better driver; you still can make the same mistakes, you still can be broadsided by a semi. It just means that you and your passengers are safer. The fact that a Volvo is safer shouldn't be a reason to fight to take Chevies off the road, either. Some people must drive Chevies.

    And there it is. Take it or leave it.

  23. Blogger Sarahbear | 9:23 PM |  

    I try hard not to get deep into the discussions about color but it frustrates me to see some of the things I see in this discussion(from the previous blog as well).

    Pain is pain is pain. No matter when it was experienced, no matter who was inflicting it, no matter who is experiencing it...it still hurts.

    Who are we to sit around and judge who deserves to hurt more? Who are we to tell someone that our own sufferings are far worse than theirs and they should be thanking their lucky stars that they are who they are?

    Please stop assuming that all white people live in a world of privilege and naivety. You're asking to be taken seriously and not looked at by your skin color, but as a human, right after you make such bitter remarks about someone else's skin color.

    There were plenty of people who read that article, by Morgan Gallagher and had it strike them as an inappropriate reference. Not that it was necessarily 'racist' but that it just wasn't really a good analogy to use.

  24. Blogger Micky | 10:38 PM |  

    Jennifer,
    I just posted a lengthy commentary on the whole Gallagher article crazyness. You were being railroaded. Anyway, I hope you will read it and even link to it. I hope it makes sense as I did it late at night.
    Here's the link:
    http://mochamilk.blogspot.com/2007/05/where-have-i-been-and-weighing-in-on.html
    Micky
    www.mochamilk.blogspot.com
    ALso, I don't know how I missed the April carnival. Will someone email me next time?
    Micky

  25. Anonymous Anonymous | 12:07 AM |  

    Oops, you mentioned the word BLACK. You're an evil racist bitch who's never known what it's like to be persecuted!

    Oh, for heaven's sakes. *rolls eyes*

    The method of comparing any other kind of discrimination to racism is a little weary and not exactly appropriate, but that's not the point here. The point is, and let me stand up and yell this loud and clear for those of you who have your panties in a knot over this:

    ASKING A WOMAN TO LEAVE BECAUSE SHE IS BREASTFEEDING IS JUST AS ABOMINABLE AS ASKING A WOMAN TO LEAVE BECAUSE SHE IS BLACK. In this day and age, neither of those things should be allowed to dictate whether or not a person has rights based on someone else's sensitivity levels. THAT is the comparison. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

    THERE! Clear as domestic beer? Good.

    So sorry that this one comment has caught you so much flack, Jen. I guess this is another life lesson for all of us: in a post-Imus world, you can't even mention race, no matter how innocently, without being crucified. Too bad it had to happen to someone as well-meaning as you.

    -Jill

  26. Anonymous Anonymous | 12:23 AM |  

    Isn't it ironic how people who hate racism when it seems to refer to them have no problem flinging it back at their imaginary enemies?

    How does that old saying go? "An eye for an eye solves all the world's problems." Or perhaps it's "Two wrongs make everything right."

    No, I think the phrase I'm looking for is, "It's only okay if *I* do it."

    *nods* That's the one.

  27. Blogger Jennifer | 6:14 AM |  

    Micky, thanks for weighing in. I just put up a new post that links to both your and Jennifer's reactions.

    No May carnival, but yes, we'll remind you in June. :)

  28. Anonymous Jake | 6:18 AM |  

    I am late to the dance here but am not surprised that Gallagher's piece raised a furor. I was saddened when so many lists and blogs made such a big deal about what she wrote. I thought she wasn't really saying anything new and was very sloppy about the way she said it. Diane Weissinger's writing on reframing the language we use in the breastfeeding discussion is so much better.

    Honestly, what I found particularly ignorant was her statement about blackness being inherent biology. The discourse about race as a social construct is smart, extensive, and not new. Gallagher can spell "hegemony" but does not appear to actually know what it means.

  29. Anonymous Marica | 6:35 AM |  

    I would say you can not use the "obese analogy" because nobody is ever asked to leave a store/restaurant/event/public place because they are obese. Historically, black people were asked to leave, and usually not allowed in at all, certain establishments. Frankly, today if you get a group of young black males walking around in the mall and goofing off, my bet is the security guard will ask them to leave. Similiarly, you get a group of nursing moms sitting in the mall nursing it's up for grabs what the security officer will do, many moms today have been asked to leave the mall. You get a group of obese people sitting in a mall and honestly all that would happen is they get made fun of - I highly doubt a securtiy guard would even question whether or not to approach them.

  30. Blogger JudyBright | 7:34 AM |  

    Jen,

    I think the Mocha Milk blog said it very well, but I will reiterate because I thought of it before I read it in her blog.

    Do not back down from the references used for fear of offending the hyper-sensitive. This is a tool of political correctness that shuts down all debate. We get caught up in language and semantics instead of ideas. And certain things can't be mentioned by certain groups of people because we can't understand the plight of some other group. I will not go out of my way to cause offense, but if none was intended, then none should be taken.

    Political correctness is evil and I refuse to stand for it. I once turned myself around into a pretzel trying to please the offended and learned it's impossible.

  31. Blogger Jennifer | 7:39 AM |  

    To note: I "backed down" for two reasons...

    1.) It's not a very good analogy. I think I can do better.

    2.) If something alienates a group of people, even if you think that group of people is being super-sensitive, and there's an alterative way to achieve the same thing, then it makes sense to go with the alternative.

    Besides, I don't see that I "backed down" on anything. I simply agreed that I could understand how some women in the black community might be offended by the association and said that I, personally, won't use it anymore.

    I still don't think it's racist to use that analogy, I just think it may be alienating.

    As I said, I think I can do better.

  32. Blogger Analisa | 7:48 AM |  

    While the analogy didn't bother me, I do believe that many of us are (definitely I am) racist without intending to be. That comes from being raised in an inherently racist culture. I am willing to have my (unintentional) racism pointed out to me, and to explore where it's coming from. If I weren't, if I just shut down and stated, "I'm not racist", we would get nowhere I think. So your willingness to have the conversation is excellent, IMO. Thank you for hosting one here!

  33. Blogger sara | 8:36 AM |  

    "I would say you can not use the "obese analogy" because nobody is ever asked to leave a store/restaurant/event/public place because they are obese."

    Actually, that makes it a fine analogy because it shows people how absurd they are being asking a breastfeeding mother to leave. Of course you will just be offending a different group of people this time... or is comparing the state of obesity with skin color racist?

  34. Blogger kimberly | 8:54 AM |  

    I don't think obesity is a good analogy for several reasons:
    1) Being obese is unhealthy - I don't think that comparing breastfeeding to something that is inherently unhealthy will be a helpful maneuver.

    2)Obesity is...not natural. For the most part. It is something we force upon ourselves for a variety of reasons (at least this is how I see my own struggles with weight issues).

    3) As stated above, obese people are not generally (if ever!) asked to leave anywhere. Perhaps they feel uncomfortable (I have my moments when I feel like the world is watching what I eat), but in general they are not overtly discriminated against.

    Perhaps, as someone suggested being women is a better analogy. Women have been discriminated against, women have been asked to leave/barred from entering certain places at times. Not that long ago, a women couldn't eat alone in a restaurant. There must be an analogy there somewhere. And since all (or most) of the people involved in or interested in the lactavist movement are women, it should be inoffensive. I think. LOL. And I do agree for the need for an analogy (because, whatever it makes me, the "old" analogy did help me to understand what you go through as a breastfeeding mom and what I will go through one day when I am a mom).

  35. Blogger Jennifer | 9:47 AM |  

    Analisa,

    I don't believe that I'm a racist either intentionally or unintentionally. However, I DO believe that there's a need for dialogue and understanding on both sides.

    I must say, I've been pleased to see that many of us are willing to take an honest look at things and to find ways to better work together.

    I'm sad to see that many prefer to continue towing the line.

    Guess that's life though, right?

  36. Blogger Nevanna | 9:56 AM |  

    Jennifer,

    Most people have racial bias--either intentionally, or unintentionally. The problem is when we don't acknowledge or work at changing our reactions. I know I have mine.

    It's unfortunate when we've created a climate where we can't even intelligently try to discuss the issue without someone being accused of being racist. I commend you, Jennifer, for your willingness to broach the subject and try to examine yourself, your writings, and other peoples' views.

  37. Blogger Jennifer | 9:57 AM |  

    Agreed that obesity is not a good analogy for all of the reasons that Kimberly pointed out.

    I also generally agree that our argument should stand on it's own merits, but sometimes, especially during conversations with people that just naively don't get it (as opposed to being genuinely hostile) you need to be able to say "Well you'd never ask X to leave the room, right?"

    For now I guess the woman analogy is the best one...

  38. Anonymous radical mama | 11:18 AM |  

    I can see how this would be a sensitive issue and perhaps the comparison is not appropriate.

    However it does make an important point: At what point are some random persons sensitivites so offended that other people have to stop doing what they are doing? Who decides what is "offensive" and what isn't? That's what I'd like to know.

    I think cell phones in restaurants are offensive. I think trucks with mudflaps with naked women's silouettes are offensive. I think people who walk around cussing loudly are offensive. Can I have them removed from my presence? Probably not. So, really, who gets to decide and why?

  39. Blogger Ahmie | 1:52 PM |  

    One interesting thing to bear in mind, many of the state laws that have come into effect to protect a mother's right to breastfeed in public specifically state something along the lines of "a mother may breastfeed [her child - goodness it annoys me when they say "baby" like Ohio does!] anywhere the mother is legally permitted to be"... the funny thing is, there are still places where the NURSLING isn't legally permitted to be, but apparently if the child is in the act of nursing, while it is actively nursing, those rules are suspended. So you can bring your nursling to the adult "bookstore" WHILE IT'S NURSING... but you better get it outside as soon as it finishes.

    My own single mother had trouble finding places for us to live once or twice because she was a mother - places were allowed to deny tenants based upon age, in non-"senior living facility" type places. They couldn't legally discriminate based upon skin color, but they could based upon the fact you were a custodial parent (or a married couple with children).

    The barring of nurslings in various public places being compared to gender is too weak, I think. It's not really within living memory of most of the people having the conversation that there actually were many places where "proper women" weren't allowed to be. We haven't lived in a highly gender segregated society in a long time. We still do live in a fairly racially segregated society (my husband teaches in inner city Cleveland. I think he's the only fully Asian person in the building, he found it striking that one of his co-workers is half-Asian). Religious segregation also happens, and is tollerated unfortunately (per the poster on the child care center in Columbus comments discriminating against non-Christians... I was left wondering if the children of those snakehandling sects of Christianity would be more welcome than a Muslim?). The reason the skin color/bfing=ok to ask to leave analogy works so well is because, honestly, people won't willingly fess up in public to WANTING to ask someone of a different skin color to leave - it's been a social taboo to be racist for long enough. It's not socially taboo to be religiously intollerant (or our president would have a negative approval rating, not just a low one... if we tip-toed around the religious tollerance issue as much as we do around racial tollerance, people would have been screaming about the fact that his "axis of evil" consisted of countries that were predominatly non-Christian). Anti-semitism is generally more socially acceptable than outright black/white racism (nevermind the other colors of existance that get ignored in those discussions). Obesity isn't outright, legally, discriminated against. Breastfeeding still is - as so many of your blog entries show - tiptoeing the line of legality even in states (like Ohio) that DO have laws on the books explicitly protecting it.

    I live in a household that lives with discrimination daily. My Chinese immigrant in-laws live with us, and they don't speak English well enough to deal with much of their own business transactions. They've internalized the discrimination so much that they don't even TRY to resist it - they make me call Medicare for them even tho Medicare provides Chinese translators (and doesn't like talking to me since they KNOW that I'm not them when I don't immediately respond "Nee How" when they answer the operator answers the phone). Discrimination, in all its forms, is by its nature disempowering. I am a disabled woman myself, I've been mildly disabled for 2/3rds of my life. I get so sick of people patting me on the head when I actually manage to accomplish something (like going down and testifying for the Ohio breastfeeding legislation in November 2004 with my at the time 6mo nursling, with no "official" interest in the matter other than being a mother)... I got so many "good for you, dear, for not letting your disability hold you back" kind of comments. Am I bothered when people compare discrimination against NIP with discrimination against people with disabilities? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, I advocate using the Americans with Disabilities Act as the basis for discrimination lawsuits against nurslings - the ADA covers people "perceived to have a disability, regardless of whether they are actually disabled or not" (paraphrased but pretty close). Nurslings are frequently perceived as being incapable of taking a bottle (at least with the same ease as they take the breast) - even that discriminatory childcare provider in the other comments holds that stereotype. It's a common stereotype, hence it's a perception of disability, even if the child, in fact, WILL take a bottle quite readily. My son HATED bottles from a week old (tried to give him some EBM when he was getting phototherapy for jaundice in an incubator - didn't work very well). Ergo, he was being discriminated against UNDER THE ADA when people tried to deny him the right to eat in public places. Babies that were "able" to take bottles were permitted to be fed in the same location, ergo it was disability discrimination against my child (not against me, the nursing mother, adult person capable of making a different choice - always remember the best PR angle, dearies).

    My mother has worked with people with varying levels of mental retardation since my early childhood, both as a volunteer and professionally (she's currently employed in a group home of severely mentally disabled adults). Most people would be completely repulsed watching the residents try to feed themselves. Does that mean that if they're in a restaurant, they can be legally required to go eat in the car or the bathroom? No, the restaurant knows better because they know, no matter how many customers might complain, they stand getting sued AND some really nasty PR if they so much as approach the table where the the mentally challenged folks are eating to say anything about it. Why is the same fear not instilled in the staff when I sit there nursing my baby at the table?

    If you want another analogy, there's one to use - along with an action point next time someone does try to ask you to nurse elsewhere. Threaten to sue them for discriminating against your child's eating disability. That should shut them up pretty quickly. Oh, and if they then compare it to a sex act, point out that the tips of the fingers contain many more nerve endings than the part of the breast they can see, and ask them to wear thick opaque gloves around your child lest they feel tempted to molest someone since that's clearly what's on their mind.

    I'm planning on carrying around complimentary mittens to hand out to people who ask me to cover up when my next child arrives (I'm due in early July).

    I snark therefore I am.

  40. Anonymous Rachel | 2:04 PM |  

    Thanks Jennifer for allowing civil, adult debate to take place. I think where a lot of misunderstanding comes in when talking about race/racism is in definitions, I think we all have different ideas of what racism is, and so we aren't able to fully understand where a person is coming from when they make certain statements. A definition of racism that is used when trying to rid organizations of racism is this "Race prejudice plus systemic misuse of power." I think this really captures a subtly in racism that we as white people tend to over look. That anyone can be racially bias is pretty much a given, and really if we are honest with ourselves everyone to some degree or another is, the thoughts come and sometimes we act on them and sometimes we don't. However I think the 'systemic misuse of power' i.e. institutionalized racism is the one that white people have a hard time accepting and working to change, because it basically means you have to own the fact that simply as a white person in US we live in and benefit from a racist system. Hence the term white privilege, and you can loathe racial prejudice, and never act on it and never discriminate against anybody of color in your whole life, but can still be 'racist' just by the very fact that you benefit from and live in a system where the political and economic power are held by people who are white.

    It started with the eradication of the First Nations, then slavery, then Jim crow, then segregation.....and then we had this amazing civil rights movement, that made great strides in stopping the overt discrimination of these institutions.....and it just went 'underground'.....look at our prisons, look at white flight to the suburbs and the decay of our inner cities, look at our poverty rates, look at our healthcare rates, look at our breastfeeding rates, look at maternal and child mortality rates, look at the response to hurricane Katrina, look at our public education scores, look at our voting records, look at immigration policy... There is no coincidence that POC end up with the short end of the stick in all of these issues and more. So why is that? Well look who is in control? How many people of color are in Congress? How many POC are CEO's of fortune 500 companies, how many are on their boards of directors making policy? We can look at the police, hospital boards, school boards...think of all the people that have some sort of power in your community, ask yourself if it is as diverse as the population that you live in (and that's not to say that some localities aren't) But as a whole country, the economic and political power is in the hands of white people. And remember this has been happening for hundreds of years, so as a white person not only do I benefit today, but my parents do, my grandparents did, my great grandparents and it goes on, and just as for generations my family has been benefiting, for generations POC have not.

    And so I think that could be where some of the anger is coming from about from all of this, that white women are in control of the national breastfeeding debate and primarily addressing issues that are of concern to middle class white women, while not looking into issues that may affect WOC. And that while we leave WOC's issues out of the debate, we use POC and their struggles to further our own...I think we need to share power and allow for equal time and energy to work for issues that may or may not affect you directly ... all lactavists have to believe in and actively support each other and all of our breastfeeding struggles, whether it is changing a store policy to allow for women to breastfeed, or changing our healthcare system so that all people have access to unbiased, good, free medical advice and support

  41. Anonymous Sinead | 2:48 PM |  

    Hey Jennifer!

    I read the article you reposted and, like you, thought wow, she has made some excellent points here albeit a bit on the long side.

    Also, like you, I felt a little uncomfortable as soon as the comparison with colour was raised. I thought it wasn't the best way to get the point across... but I seriously didn't read anymore into it than that.

    But, oh my goodness, how anyone can accuse you of being racist, well that is just absurd!

    I seriously believe there are people always just waiting in the sidelines to attack... people who don't really have anything better to do with their time and who, to top it all off, remain anonymous!!

    I can perfectly understand why you posted the article which made many excellent points. Shame on those who have attacked you for it! I seriously doubt they read your blog regularly or realise/ care about the good work you do for the breastfeeding movement!

    You have my full support.

  42. Anonymous Rose | 6:43 PM |  

    I can't back this up anywhere, and I'm too lazy to Google. But I am CERTAIN that I learned somewhere in my long, varied, expensive education that the biological norm is to have more pigment in the skin. Just as the biological norm is to have darker hair and eyes - and that technically blonde hair and blue eyes are genetic deviations of the norm.

    I'm not talking societal or cultural norms here, I mean biological norms. The same norms that make men go ga-ga over an hourglass shape and make women subtlely change what they found attractive in a man based on where she is in her cycle.

    I didn't find the article so racist - I believe the author was making a true statement. I don't think her reference was even about the fact that people with dark skin were historically treated much much differently than those with lighter skin (and in most places, unfortunately, still are.)

    I do, however, believe she was strongly mistaken in using the term "black" because for most people, the term black conjures images of people of African descent, which would make the whole biological norm theory moot. She should have stated "people with more skin pigment" or something similar - because being "African" isn't any more biologically normal than being "Scandinavian" or "Asian" or "Inuit" - but being darker skinned is.

    I really think she was just stating what the biological norms are - nothing more. I don't know what other analogy would have been more appropriate - certainly not obesity, as that isn't the biological norm. Maybe she could have said "women with unshaven armpits" or "people of normal height and weight" but I don't think that makes as much sense.

  43. Blogger The Curries | 8:03 PM |  

    Does an analogy have to be perfect in order to be useful? I use analogies all the time in my teaching, and sometimes they get a little wacky or they don't make absolute perfect sense. But if my students get what I'm trying to say and the lesson comes across, that's what counts, right? I got what Gallagher was trying to say. It was an imperfect analogy- not necessarily "inappropriate," but just not terribly well thought out.

  44. Anonymous Jennifer | 12:59 AM |  

    Jennifer:

    I was the one, for the record, who called you a "clueless bint". Judging on the very small part of your post that I bothered to read, I'm glad to see that I have no reason to take it back. Only a white woman can listen to NUMEROUS people (of all races) decry something as insulting as Gallagher's article and turn it into "ME ME ME ALL ABOUT ME AND MY FEELINGS ME ME ME WOE IS ME ME ME" Hooray, white privilege!

    Your smarter readers said it better than I ever could: lactivism is about a child's right to eat (or so I thought). That needs no comparison with being black, obese, disabled, or a friggin' leprechaun. The fact that you obviously NEED to compare your little fight to something shows that your battle is a weak cause to begin with. Isn't your reason good enough to not to misappropriating another struggle to yours? I guess not.

    Post this or not - I could care less, because I know you're going to read it, and that's all that matters to me. Unlike you, I don't need public pats on my ass to make my points - and I sure as hell don't need a token friend of another color to back me up, a la Condoleezza Rice. (Although I do admire Micky's ability to type and tap dance at the same time.)

    By the way, I've seen this post and the last one posted in many a place, and I guess all us nigras are just sensitive, racist and mean. Either that, or we know comedy when we see it. You've shined a rather whiny, entitled, selfish middle class white light on lactivism. Be proud.

    Cheers, and thanks for the laughs!

  45. Blogger Jennifer | 4:53 AM |  

    Jennifer, judging by the very small part of your response that I actually read, (why should I spend my time on your thoughts if you refuse to consider mine?) I'm glad to have confirmed my assumption that you are the type of person that WANTS to be angry.

    I wish you much happiness in life and I sincerely hope that you find it.

  46. Anonymous Anonymous | 6:29 AM |  

    Wow! I have been under a rock! I actually did enjoy the overall point of the article, and then I moved on. I thought the overall sentiment was very UNRACIST. It was about accepting all people, and not rejecting them or treating them badly because of something natural and innate about them. Comparisons can only go so far. I don't think this one was necessarily a bad one, but it ends (and maybe this was also the reason for some of the outrage) because even if someone is offended or discriminates against someone because of the color of his/her skin, that person cannot change the color. The tragedy is that many women because of actual incidences or the fear of future public disapproval will choose not make the healthiest choices for themselves and their children.

    Maybe this was already suggested (3 small children, no time to read all comments), but this is why the obesity comparison doesn't work, because negativity (although probably counterproductive in most cases) encourages the healthier choices.

    I personally encounter many women who are so afraid of public disapproval of breastfeeding that they will choose not to breastfeed at all or become depressed by being isolated at home or start using bottles (formula or breastmilk) all of which tend to sabotage breastfeeding in many cases. The culture needs to change to support women to make the best choices for themselves and their children. I think this article was a powerful explanation of this cause.

    Jennifer R.

  47. Anonymous Jennifer | 6:43 AM |  

    What makes you think that I'm not happy? I know you're self-centered and all, but damn.

  48. Anonymous Jake | 8:19 AM |  

    Jennifer,

    If post #40 is the kind of garbage you have been getting, you have my deepest respect for even being willing to engage in this discussion. We may not agree on everything, but we can talk about it productively. The writer of post #40 is an example of why people are afraid to discuss important issues in public.

    You rock in my book :)

  49. Blogger Jennifer | 9:42 AM |  

    You know what Jennifer, you've made me reverse my decision to censor comments that hurl insults.

    Why? Because quite frankly, I don't think that your posts are doing anything to harm MY reputation or the way readers of this blog view me. So call me whatever you'd like. (well, ok, whatever you'd like that doesn't cross the line until vulgarities.)

    As for the happiness comment, I realize that you dont' read the full text of my posts, but if you did, you'll see that I never said you were unhappy.

    I simply wished that you would find happiness.

    If you are a happy person, are you really SO happy that there's not room for a little more? ;)

  50. Blogger Heather | 10:24 AM |  

    I always find it amusing when people decide to make blanket judgments based on admittedly limited information:

    "Judging on the very small part of your post that I bothered to read,"

    Congratulations. You've managed to prove yourself every bit as deluded as you claim Jennifer to be. Making judgments on someone when you can't possibly have all the information is the mark of someone far less formidable than they'd have the world believe them to be.

    Ahmie - Thank you for your lwell-thought out comment. I don't think anyone has reacted to it yet. I'm throughly impressed, and I have to say... the comparison fits. Like you said, my daughter could very well have been considered disabled by the ADA because of her inability to accept a bottle. (Although I prefer to think of it as lucky. ;) Forced me to work harder because there WAS no other option.)

  51. Blogger Sarahbear | 11:03 AM |  

    Sigh.

    After clicking on Jennifer's name to the link to her live journal it only confirmed my assumptions that she perpetuates the 'angry black woman' stereotype. She does not have children. She's also completely opposed to breastfeeding. Why she bothers reading a blog that's clearly about breastfeeding, encouraging other mothers to breastfeed, breastfeeding legislation and motherhood in general, I do not know.

    She's not going to see things any other way than her own closed minded opinions are going to allow her to. She's only here to argue.

    Now back to the -real- topic that was being discussed before. After reading Mocha Milk and The Black Breastfeeding Blog responses to this one...I'm going to go back on my previous statement and say that the analogy was perfect. It is not the fault of the writer of the article that people choose not to take her words at face value and attempted to find a different meaning. People should not have to mince their words the way that they do to avoid offending the hyper sensitive.

    I'm going to say that people offended by something they've read are just like the people who are 'offended' by breastfeeding in public. It's their job to look away and deal with their own issues about why it bothers them to see a baby eating.

  52. Blogger JudyBright | 11:13 AM |  

    I'm feeling crabby today and need to have a little fun, so your comments shall be my uhhh, victim.

    1. To Ahmie, the President's "axis of evil" consisted 100% of countries whose governments WANT US ALL DEAD. I don't think he took a religious survey of the people before he named those nations. Plenty of non-Christian nations left off the list.

    2. There's too many "Jennifer's" here to keep track of, much like my childhood, but to the angry one (angry in these posts but generally happy in life) Condoleezza Rice is cool! And seriously, are we going to blame this post on the President too? I'm sure he had something to do with it. Just because a black person disagrees with you doesn't make them a 'token' or whatever. I thought it was the ancestry and skin color that made someone black, not the political leanings, but hey, what do I know, since you so open mindedly said, only a white woman can make it all about themselves. (I know that last sentence made NO sense)

    3. but can still be 'racist' just by the very fact that you benefit from and live in a system where the political and economic power are held by people who are white.

    No I can't. That's ridiculous. Racism is a personal philosophy and way of thinking and acting. I could possibly hold some racist attitude without realizing it consciously, but if somehow I unknowingly got a job or a better education because of someone else's racist action, I do not become racist by association. It does not work that way. Racism isn't in the water and air. It is in the hearts and minds of individual human beings.

    I also challenge the notion that the major problems you mention are the fault of institutional racism. Those problems are pretty complicated, but family structure and individual responsibility and education have to lead the way with those issues.

    As far as the breastfeeding debate, anyone of any color can start a blog, so I don't see how white women are controlling things. Our beloved Lactivist started this to promote milk banking and the right to breastfeed in public. What's stopping a WOC from doing the same thing? I'd say simply education possibly; my other answer being 'nothing.'

    That brings me to another point. I honestly have no idea how I as a white woman can help with educating WOC about breastfeeding or anything else. That's what we're being told to do but you also see the hostility and how we seem to have to watch every word to make sure we don't offend. I've had one experience teaching in a predominately black school, and the hostility against me was palpable constantly. I wanted to help but felt totally unwelcome. I really think WOC need to lead the struggle to educate their fellow WOC about this issue as well as others. If us white women need to just secretly support in the background then so be it.

  53. Blogger Nevanna | 3:26 PM |  

    but can still be 'racist' just by the very fact that you benefit from and live in a system where the political and economic power are held by people who are white.

    This still blows my mind. So, by virtue of being white, that makes me a racist?? Did I misunderstand that, or is this really saying that, because of the color of my skin, I have no choice but to be racist?

    Wow.

    I had to resist the urge to tick off the reasons supporting why I am not a racist. Anyone else have that crazy urge, as well? But, I don't think I should have to defend myself as a non-racist just because I happen to be white.

  54. Anonymous Jake | 6:55 PM |  

    So sorry, I misidentified as post #40 the post by the insulting Jennifer - I meant above to compliment you (Jenn the blogger) on your handling of the other Jennifer (Jennifer the insulting). My apologies to the author of post #40 as well. I am techno-impaired and don't know how to edit my comment.

    Hoping I got it right way round this time - hang in there.

  55. Anonymous Jennifer | 10:45 PM |  

    SarahBear, did you really just type that I'm AGAINST breastfeeding? Are you serious? How can anyone be AGAINST breastfeeding? Don't ever say anything that stupid again as long as you live.

    I'm here because this post was linked in a community where people like to point and laugh at whiny little entitlement queens like Jennifer. Jennifer happened to take a swipe at me. That's all. I can't stand lactivists - I find the movement to be full of hateful, ignorant, uneducated liars, but I'm not against breastfeeding at all, and I STRONGLY resent you saying that I am.

  56. Blogger Jennifer | 5:41 AM |  

    Just posting to note that I actually have censored a comment that's just come through from "angry" Jennifer.

    Here's a copy of the post with my own little snip.

    BTW, SarahBear, I don't perpetuate anything. The fact that you see me as an "angry black woman" simply because I'm black and female says waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more about you than it does about me. We can't all be happy, smiling, good [snip], but rest assured that this isn't anger. This is mocking. I'm typing with a smile on my face - trust.

  57. Blogger Naki | 6:35 AM |  

    Thanks for the post Jennifer. Wow this is all crazy. I had read the posts several times and I have come to the comclusion that people perceive everything differently. I didn't have a problem with the post. But give me a break... did someone actually wrote this?
    "It is always, always, always 'why can't you do all the work for me and make it so i feel totally comfortable and don't ever ever have to question a single one of my racist assumptions?"
    Now that sounds a little sterotypical to me don't you think? All this has gotten out of hand. Here's an idea....
    Don't take everything so personal and move on? Next. By the way I am a Lactivist too.

  58. Blogger Sarahbear | 9:25 AM |  

    My apologies, I should have elaborated that you were 'opposed to breastfeeding your own children', that you don't even have yet. I got that information from your live journal blog linked to your name at

    http://loomissimmons.livejournal.com/12306.html

    You're entitled to think that lactivism/lactivists are stupid. Since you do not have children, nor do you breastfeed, we don't expect you to understand what it's all about. I adore how ignorant people who have no children of their own like to weigh in on parenting debates and what we should deem important enough to fight for, for the sake of our children. (hrm, kinda like us stupid little 'snowflakes' thinking we know anything at all about racism, huh?)

    and btw, Jennifer(the lactivist) you don't have to censor anyone's language on my behalf, unless you just refuse to allow vulgar remarks. I believe that the snipped part just further validated my assumptions of her.

    I didn't just assume because you were black and a woman that you were also angry. I gather that from your posts. Just because you've got a grin painted on your face doesn't mean that your words are filled with hate and anger.

  59. Blogger Jennifer | 10:07 AM |  

    Jennifer,

    Having now read your LJ blog post about the subject, I understand you far better than I did before.

    I'll also say that I think my wish that you find happiness was probably appropriate.

    I'd leave you with a comment about the pot calling the kettle black, but I'm sure that in your eyes, my use of the term black would cause you to further dub me a racist.

    Thus, I'll say...

    Call me (or simply think of me as) a racist if you want, but know that if you do, it's nothing more than the marshmallow calling the "snowflake" white.

  60. Blogger Jennifer | 12:15 PM |  

    Once again, edited posting of a comment by the Jennifer who is "not angry."

    Jennifer:

    Once again, I point out that I NEVER called you a racist. You can say that over and over again, but that doesn't make it true.

    Two, your cutting my comment was cowardice - the common trait of a lactivist. You arranged it to where it suggests that I said one thing when I said another. That's fine; I'll clarify it in my LiveJournal if I feel like it.

    Three, it's so silly for people to think that people with no children don't read up on parenting issues when so many of us work with children. Not to mention the fact that we are aunts, godmothers, cousins, and so on.

    Four, you will never understand me, because your idea of what black people SHOULD be ([SNIP]) and what black people ARE are completely different, and you refuse to see the second part.

    Finally, if I was the only one mocking you about race, your condescending attitude would have merit. Seeing that I'm not, you just come across looking like an ass. Enjoy your privilege, snowflake.


    Jennifer,

    I cut your comment because while you are welcome to call ME whatever you'd like, I will not allow my blog to be a platform for you to hurl racial slurs at WOC that you disagree with. If you want to call them that on your blog, feel free.

    The blog has been linked to, people are welcome to follow you back to read your words there...but they're NOT going to be subjected to that kind of language here. (And to note, I wouldn't publish comments from anyone else calling you a racial slur either.)

    As to your other comments, you are correct, you never said "Jennifer is a racist." However, your words clearly imply that you believe I am a racist and the statement "if someone else wants to call you one, they are certainly justfied" makes it pretty clear that whether you've said it directly or not, it is your intent.

    You say that you have friends that are parents, thus, you can understand parenting issues.

    I have friends that are black, yet you insist I can NEVER understand what that's like.

    Why the double standard?

    As for what my idea of what black people "should be"...well...funny...I don't really have any idea of what black people should be. Seeing as how every human being is different, I never really thought that just because some of them have the same skin color, they all need to act a certain way. Apparently you disagree?

    Finally, I'll reiterate my last line. Your post above simply continues to prove my statement that you are nothing more than a marshmallow calling this snowflake white.

  61. Anonymous Tzarina | 1:04 PM |  

    Snowflake Jennifer, it's sad that you would choose to concentrate on ONE poster of color - the "angry" one who has no children - as opposed to all the other posters of color WITH children who may be more polite than Angry Black Jennifer. Not to mention there have been quite a few white women who have also reprimanded you, myself included. Yet you ignore all of us, too. What do you have against white women who think you're a fool?

    I’ve known Angry Black Jennifer long enough to know that if she wanted to call you a racist, she’d call you a racist. Do you think that people are so afraid of you that they’d mince words? You insist on saying that Angry Black Jennifer thinks you’re racist, despite the fact that she has said more than once that she doesn’t. Why? You insist on calling her angry for the sole reason that she is black, female, and uses naughty language. Why? While Angry Black Jennifer may not think you’re a racist, I do, and I’ll say so. I have $20 that says that you’ve called her “ghetto” offline, or said things like “black people like that”. You know how cheap we Jews can be, but I’m well-versed in crackerspeak.

    Angry Black Jennifer was kind enough to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you didn’t realize how offensive your posting of the Tittymilk = Racial Makeup manifesto. You chose to show us all who you really are by mocking a very valid complaint, sitting on you Mountain O'Privilege with the rest of the Snowflake Squad while turning your nose up at the uppity coloral gal, the thorn in your lily white paw. It’s much easier to stick to smiling, safe Negroes like the ones who co-sign your posts, than to go head-on with the ones who think you’re full of it.

    And don't worry, Angry Black Jennifer! I won't post a picture of your boyfriend to bring Snowflake Jennifer's argument to a screeching halt...or your mother, for that matter. I bet these zombies would lose their minds if they saw me pouring all this liquid gold down the sink while both my beautiful boys suck away on bottles filled with poison.

  62. Anonymous Tzarina | 1:15 PM |  

    Before I forget. When Angry Black Jennifer calls you a snowflake, she's referring to you thinking that you're so delicate and special...not that you're white. The double meaning IS funny as hell, though.

  63. Blogger JudyBright | 1:40 PM |  

    My dearest lactivist,

    I think I'm having a moment of clarity, though I've been wrong about this in the past.

    I will never try to tell you what to do because you are stronger willed than I and I do not like fighting useless battles, but I do think you would be perfectly justified in either banning or ignoring mocking Jennifer from this blog. She is divisive. This is obvious from her words, but she admits to it herself. After following the little internet rabbit trail to her blog, I found this quote which is especially telling.

    Now, there are black people out there who are working very hard to smooth over the relationship between blacks and whites, ultimately working to strive towards the dream that Dr. King had. I'm not one of those black people. To be blunt, I couldn't give less of a shit about black/white unity than I do right at this very moment. Hell, I get along with white people just fine. It was Malcolm X who said it best: in order to have black/white unity, we must first have black unity. And that's where my loyalties lie, have always laid and always will. If you have a problem with that, take it up with someone who cares. http://loomissimmons.livejournal.com/2007/01/23/

    Engaging her any longer is useless. I believe the only useful thing to do is say a prayer for her. As a Christian I honestly mean that. I've spent long periods of my life angry and bitter and it hurts yourself and others.

    -signing off this thread (i think)

  64. Blogger Jennifer | 1:40 PM |  

    Tzarina,

    Just to be clear, because between you and "other" Jennifer (how bout that, I'll call her "other" Jennifer since despite seeming angry, she says she's not...or should I call her "smirking" Jennifer? would that be better?)...anyway...am I supposed to be offended by the term "snowflake?" It is a happy "aww...she's pure and cool and unique like a snowflake" or is that "man, I hate those cold white frozen snowflakes." Just trying to gain perspective...

    I'm also a little at a loss as to your claim that I focus only on "angry Jennifer" in my responses. Perhaps you missed reading the post that all of these comments are attached to? Perhaps you missed all my back and forth with Michelle? Perhaps you missed the conversations that I've had with most posters?

    Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said that while I in no way believe that the comparison that sparked the controversy is racist, you might note that I did say that I understand why it would offend people and that I personally won't be using it again.

    How exactly does that section of my post and my responses to various posters in the comments equate to "ignore all of us too?"

    Do I think Jennifer is afraid of me? No, I think she probably finds me a bit amusing and a lot annoying.

    As for angry, I insist on calling her angry...well actually...someone else started that, I just picked it up...anyway, I call her angry because she very much appears to be angry. Why would I call her angry due to the color of her skin or the fact that she's outspoken? That makes no sense?

    Finally, a thorn in my paw? If I honestly thought that do you think that I would be posting her comments and her insults of me on this blog? She can say whatever she'd like. Now I've already said I won't post anything that hurls racist or vulgar insults at anyone other than ME, but she can say whatever she'd like.

    I've also yet to see you or Jennifer try to engage in any conversation other than ranting. I've yet to see productive conversation that offers suggestions or input beyond the thinking that I simply need to admit that because of the color of my skin I must be a racist and that I should just shut up about it.

    If you or Jennifer HAVE offered constructive solutions on how to move this debate forward and I've missed them (I've double checked, I don't see them anywhere) then I invite you to point them out so that we can start working on how to move forward.

    Honestly though, based on the opinion that Jennifer seems to have of breastfeeding, breastfeeding mothers and the breastfeeding movement, I can't imagine that you would WANT things to move forward.

    Lastly, I'd challenge you to find a post on this blog (or anywhere else) that ever has me equating poison to formula or otherwise speaking negatively about the women that use it.

    Oh and Ghetto? ROTFL. I think the only time in my life I've used the word ghetto was when singing along to an Elvis Presley classic. Now I did use the phrase "people like that" in offline conversation, though the word "black" wasnt' attached to it. Instead, I was talking about "people like that, who want to end debate by making negative judgements of character rather than addressing the issues at hand."

    It's easy to make assumptions in an online world. I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions of ME off of, but it's certainly not off the posts on this blog. If so, then you have a much better ability to read something into nothing than I do.

    Post any pictures you want...why would it make a difference what color her friends and family are? My comments about her are based on what she's saying, not the color of her skin. I've met plenty of white people that like to name call too...I don't let them hurl insults via my blog either.

  65. Blogger Jennifer | 1:46 PM |  

    Ah Ha! Clarification. Cool.

    I'd say that the fact that I'm posting all this has disproven the "I'm so delicate, oh no, I can't let anyone say bad things about me" line of thinking.

    Not sure about the "special" part...my husband thinks I am. If I were describing myself though I'd probably lean more toward "unique."

    Take that as you wish. ;)

  66. Blogger Jennifer | 1:53 PM |  

    I have thick skin Judy. :)

    If they want to keep commenting, that's fine by me. I'm not going anywhere. May take me awhile to post and respond sometimes, I do run the two businesses that afford me my "privileged" life while watching my kids...time does occasionally run short.

    But like I said, I'm not going anywhere, so whatever. They want to keep ranting it's fine by me. If they want to stop ranting and start conversing, I'm up for that too.

  67. Anonymous t | 2:00 PM |  

    tzarina:

    i read on ms. jennifer's lj blog (wether she's angry or not.) that you had a bad experience with a nurse after your son was born. i am not going to try to open an account there, but i did want to tell you that what happened to you was *horrible* and that it is people like that nurse that seriously damage the lactivist cause.

    but you can be sure that no real lactivist is going to try to force you or anyone to breastfeed. and reading that you had to wait for six freakin hours before you could give your child formula was horrifying for me.

    seeing that things like that actually happen makes many womens decisions make much more sense to me. i know that if i was preg and saw a friend or relative go thru that, it would've changed my views on breastfeeding completely.

    please know that your choice is just that: your choice, and i don't think anyone will condemn you for it.

  68. Anonymous Jennifer | 2:26 PM |  

    Don't worry, Tzar. I'm pretty fluent in crackerspeak, too. I know far too many white women like Snowflake Jennifer. They were my teachers, my administrators, my peers...you get the idea. She's to be pitied, but not taken seriously. Why should I care if trash like SJ paints me as an angry black bitch? Seriously, she says I'm "ranting"? Ranting about WHAT? Oh, that's right - when a black woman voices displeasure, she's "ranting" and "angry". It doesn't have to be true when someone white is doing the speaking.

    I know I've done my fair share of NONJUDGMENTAL advocating of breastfeeding during my years as a youth counselor - why would I advocate something as expensive as formula to women on WELFARE, who get kicked off the WIC program sooner than breastfeeding mothers? - to take anything she says seriously. I just hate to see the turn that the movement (which isn't a movement at all) has taken, because all it's going to do is draw lines in the sand. This is something I've seen with my own eyes. This is something I've had to lecture and counsel my girls over. I'll never forget when one of my favorite students called me bawling her eyes out. She said - and I'll never forget this as long as I live - that every time her child cried, she wanted to fling him into a wall. She hated breastfeeding with every bone in her body (stress on the word HATED, which was screamed in my ear repeatedly) but she'd been brainwashed into thinking that feeding her child formula would make her a horrible mother. I asked her if her mother breastfed; she said no. I asked if her grandmother breastfed; she said no, her mother was fed milk and Karo syrup. I told her not to wake me up again with such nonsense and hung up the phone. She switched to formula and became her old self again, thank God.

    I always told my girls to not fall for hype; to educate themselves, ask questions and make their own decisions. Those who were on the fence or squeamish, I'd tell them to give it a try if the thought of breastfeeding didn't make them uncomfortable. Those who were adamantly against the idea - for WHATEVER reason - I didn't bother. Their minds were made up, and to try to insinuate that they were ignorant, in my opinion, was an insult to their intelligence. In fact, I noticed the ones who were adamantly against the idea were actually VERY educated about the so-called benefits of breastfeeding. They just figured out it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors and drove on. When they asked me what I thought, I'd remind them that I had no children and my opinion was irrelevant, but if they pressed me, I'd tell them that I was going to be a forumla feeding mother, like my mother and her mother before her. I had a lactivist tell me that was irresponsible and since the irls looked up to me, I should lie to them and tell them that I would be breastfeeding so they would too. I asked her, “Are you telling me to lie to my girls?” and she said something about how it was a GOOD lie. That was the last lactivist we ever had come to visit, and if I never talk to one again, it’ll be way too soon.

    The only real way to get more women of color to nurse their babies is to silence wannabes like Snowflake Jennifer and Morgan, and that won't ever happen. They'll cluck their tongues at the fact that 1/2 the black mothers will never breastfeed their children, but they won't take responsibility for the fact that they keep having a hand in those statistics. They’ll say things like “if they feel guilty, they DESERVE to feel guilty!” Right, that solves the problem. Good God, just thinking about it all gives me a headache. I think I’ll write more about it on my journal, where the entitlement fumes aren’t so thick.

    You're 100% right about one thing, though. For these women to be advocates of a woman's right to feed their babies, I wonder what their reactions would've been when you encountered that whacked out nurse? Exactly. Screw lactivism.

    And judybright, I reject your prayers for me, and I hope God at least shields me from them. I don't think God goes for bullshit, condescending prayers. Prayers have to be sincere, and yours are not.

  69. Blogger Jennifer | 2:33 PM |  

    Oh wow, six hours?

    Good grief, I hope you filed some serious complaints against that hopsital...that nurse specifically.

  70. Blogger Jennifer | 2:36 PM |  

    Jennifer,

    Now THAT was constructive.

    I can see who you are mad at now...and it isn't me.

  71. Anonymous Jennifer | 2:50 PM |  

    Uh-huh.

  72. Anonymous Rachel | 2:51 PM |  

    so maybe I wasn't clear on my definition of racism, here it is again: racial prejudice PLUS SYSTEMIC MISUSE OF POWER.... If you don't include the systemic misuse of power in your definition, you will have very different ideas of what racism is. If you don't believe that there is a history of institutional racism in this country, that continues today,then it's like debating apples and oranges. People need to agree on what they debating about, or it just spirals into mean name calling, and people that want honest debate are shut out.

    I happen to think that there is institutional racism in this country and that as a white person, I benefit from this. Once I am aware that I am working within an unjust system, what is my responsibility? Do I go on and say well I'M not acting out of racial prejudice, so I don't have to do anything, it's other people. You talk of personal responsibility, well what is our responsibility, when we benefit from a system purely on the color of our skin and not on our merit? Is it not our responsibility to speak up? Try to change it?

    Some background of why I am using this particular definition of racism. My church went through a long and often times painful process, for all the participants, in trying to make our church and sister organizations places free of the subversive form of racism that is institutional racism. That is the definition that we started from and the hard work and conversations went from there.

    In peace...

  73. Blogger Jennifer | 2:59 PM |  

    Rachel,

    I agree with you completely. We do live in a society that was built on racist foundations, there's absolutely no denying that.

    What I deny is that the ways that this country were built and the institutions that still run heavy across much of our culture make every single person that is white a racist. Benefitting from something does not make you a racist, contributing to that system does, KWIM?

    Do I live in a society where life is often easier for me due to the color of my skin? Yes. Does that make ME racist? No.

    There's a difference.

    I also agree with you that part of growing up in a culture like this is helping to turn the tide of those belief systems.

    Do I work toward that? Yep. But bringing that into the debate right now is pointless. Those that believe me don't need convinced and those that disagree with me won't be convinced.

    Instead, the whole point of this thread is to try and find out how women of ALL colors can work together to promote an environment that helps educate mothers about breastfeeding and that helps those who want to breastfeed have access to the tools and the support we need.

    I have no interest in forcing women that don't want to breastfeed to do so. We've got enough work just trying to help the ones that WANT help.

  74. Anonymous Jennifer | 3:18 PM |  

    What the hell?

    You cosign and defend offensive, racist bullshit, then cry when people call you on it. Until today, no one had even called you a racist, yet you insist on saying that we're calling you a racist, or insinuating it, or thinking it. Welcome to the real world, where publicly endorsing stupid shit has consequences!

    I won't contribute to this stroking of your pathetic ego for a second longer. You may enjoy being in whiny white woman mode, but I refuse to allow to act like a victim for a second longer, not at my hand. You are an overprivileged, attention seeking, blind-to-the-obvious fraud and I'll be goddamned if I waste another minute on your or your bullshit cause.

  75. Anonymous Rachel | 3:20 PM |  

    By continuing to benefit from something that you know is unjust is not participating? I would respectfully disagree.

    "Instead, the whole point of this thread is to try and find out how women of ALL colors can work together to promote an environment that helps educate mothers about breastfeeding and that helps those who want to breastfeed have access to the tools and the support we need."

    -Yup I agree and you do that by learning about where people are coming from, their past and their present in order to move together in the future. I think understanding racism as it exists in America today is HUGE part of that. That was my point.

  76. Anonymous Rachel | 3:24 PM |  

    opps what i mean to say was the i disagree with your statement of

    "What I deny is that the ways that this country were built and the institutions that still run heavy across much of our culture make every single person that is white a racist. Benefitting from something does not make you a racist, contributing to that system does, KWIM?"

    By benefitting you are participating in that system.

  77. Anonymous Tzarina | 4:23 PM |  

    Why do you insist on calling Jennifer angry long after she's told you repeatedly that she's not? Maybe you're not a condescending bitch, but that's how you're coming across. If you had a semblance of humanity, you'd be ashamed of the way you've handled all of this. But since the Snowflake Squad is backing you up, I guess that's all the approval you really need.

    How amusing. A white woman wanting to have an open discussion about race...with other white women.

  78. Blogger Sarahbear | 4:44 PM |  

    You can't paint everyone with the same brush. I guess that's what makes labels so bad. We associate ourselves with the word 'lactivist' and so do many well meaning people, but there are also some who aren't so well meaning in there.

    Regarding the terrible experience in the hospital where your infant went for 6 hours without formula because the nurses tried to force you to nurse, that would have had me sending my husband to the administration in that hospital and going out to purchase the formula to feed him with. That nurse was wrong for that and she should have been fired/suspended.

    Don't confuse that type of person with the 'ban the bags' thing though. From what I understand, they just want hospitals to stop sending home diaper bags with formula samples in them home with breastfeeding mothers. If they've made the choice to breastfeed they need separate diaper bags that give them things to help with nursing. Things like a tube of lanolin nipple cream, books and information on local LC's and support groups, etc. It's not about trying to force women to choose breastfeeding, it's about not sabotaging women who already made their choice.

    In response to Jennifer's story about the young mother who called in the middle of the night so very frustrated with breastfeeding: I think perhaps that young woman might have been suffering from a case of post partum depression (even a mild case). It can be amplified by the lack of sleep that breastfeeding can cause in the first few months and the frustration with getting use to nursing.

    Your counseling center (and you) shouldn't bar all LC's from ever coming, you should look for one who's more suited to your center. Someone who knows what they are talking about, knows how to help gently and not force. All LC's aren't like that.

    There is nothing wrong with formula feeding your child. I don't think anyone here believes that. This is a place to help encourage mothers who have chosen to breastfeed, to help get them information about it, to help spread the word on new legislation that would make their life easier when they go back to work. It's not about making mothers who choose to formula feed feel inferior to mothers who choose to breast feed.

  79. Blogger Jennifer | 5:38 PM |  

    …where publicly endorsing stupid shit has consequences!

    No arguments there!

    I won't contribute to this stroking of your pathetic ego for a second longer.

    You have a very interesting idea of what qualifies as “stroking someone’s ego.”

    A white woman wanting to have an open discussion about race...with other white women.
    Apparently you’ve checked the pedigree of every last poster on this thread? I give you credit, you managed to learn more about all of them than I have yet.

    By benefitting you are participating in that system.

    Rachel, rereading my post, I don’t think I did a very good job of trying to get my point across. My point wasn’t “Hey great, let’s sit around benefiting from a system that discriminates” it was that you can’t really control the fact that the system exists apart from working to change it.

    For instance, if I go and interview for a job and I have no idea who else has been interviewed or what their qualifications are, and I get the job because the interviewer is prejudiced…that doesn’t make me a racist, not even inadvertently, even though you could say I “benefited” by getting the job.

    On the other hand, if I am shopping in a store and I see the store owner suddenly start following two black teenage kids around and watching them like I hawk, I can say something to him and tell him why he’s losing my business.

    In other words, I can react when I see it happening, but you can’t always SEE it happening. That’s what makes it so difficult. Thus, while I can and do work to help change things, the very fact that I am white (and therefore “benefit” from someone else’s prejudice) does not make me a racist.

    Does that make more sense?

  80. Anonymous Tzarina | 6:28 PM |  

    What do you call writing off the opinions of black women who don't agree with you, labeling them "angry", even after they've said otherwise, and telling blatant lies about them calling you a racist? I'm really puzzled about the way you define racism.

  81. Blogger Jennifer | 6:58 PM |  

    Tzarina,

    I call that writing off the thoughts of SOME women who happen to be black. Not writing off all of them.

    There were some women that disagreed with me and that engaged me in conversation. (Michelle springs to mind.) She thinks I'm wrong, but she engaged me in dialogue instead of insulting me.

    As for definition of racism, I agree that we're both confused by each other's definitions.

    At least we agree on something. :)

  82. Anonymous Tzarina | 8:09 PM |  

    I call that writing off the thoughts of SOME women who happen to be black.

    And I call bullshit. You were perfectly willing to ignore the fact that Gallagher's piece was racially insensitive, if nothing else, simply because it was about something you disagreed with. You ignored the points of view of ALL the posters who disagreed with you, even the black ones you approved of, like Michelle. So I'm sure someone as angry and as black as Jennifer must REALLY piss you off. You can say one thing, but you're clearly doing another. You ignore the fact that Jennifer never called you a racist (you also ignore the fact that I have called you one). You ignore the fact that she's never said anything to you that was truly disrespectful or insulting - either that, or you're quite the sensitive soul. Even if you'd just admitted that you screwed up, I wager that would've gone a long way. But you choose instead to stick your fingers and your ears, going "LALALALALALALALALAICANTHEARYOU!", and that makes you just as childish as the son you're so proud of being a mother to. You fucked up. Be a grownup, own up to it, and apologize to those you offended. ("I'm sorry you were offended" is not an apology.)

    And while you'll never admit it out loud, you and I both know that the little angry black bitch bested you in front of all your buddies, and it makes you sick.

  83. Anonymous Rachel | 10:00 PM |  

    Jennifer from Live Journal... you said - "The only real way to get more women of color to nurse their babies is to silence wannabes like Snowflake Jennifer and Morgan, and that won't ever happen. They'll cluck their tongues at the fact that 1/2 the black mothers will never breastfeed their children..."

    As someone who works with young women/mothers as well I would like to hear what your experience has shown you.

    What did you mean by that? How is it that white women talking about nursing is stopping black women from nursing? is this the only reason do you think? What else is stopping black women from nursing?

    Lactavist Jennifer... I think we may be talking about different things here, I'm referring to institutional racism, like the prison system, or political system, not necessarily an individual exercising the power they have. Not benefiting from a single person's prejudice, but an entire system that has at it's very core racist policy.

    It's late and I may not be explaining myself very well...and this is perhaps straying from the original topic...

  84. Blogger Sarahbear | 7:38 AM |  

    Tzarina said: You were perfectly willing to ignore the fact that Gallagher's piece was racially insensitive, if nothing else, simply because it was about something you disagreed with.

    From Jennifer's Blog: Sure, it's easy for one side to state that Gallagher's post was not respectful. In many ways, I agree with them. While I understand the comparison she made and why she made it (more on this later) I also understand that for those who have lived the struggle, it's belittling. This does nothing for the breastfeeding cause because it shuts down lines of communication that desperately need to stay open...Now, with that out of the way, I want to make very clear that I understand why some of those close to the heart of the issue of racism are upset. I understand why you feel that it devalues your cause. After all, while women ARE discriminated against, refused service and denied employment options due to their choice to bear children and breastfeed, there is still a choice involved. So is this comparison racist? Absolutely not. Is it insensitive? Probably.

    Tzarina said: You ignored the points of view of ALL the posters who disagreed with you, even the black ones you approved of, like Michelle.

    From a response to a comment from Michelle: In reading your post, I can say that if that's how you are interpreting the intent, then I 100% agree with you that it's aversive racism and therefore, actual racism.

    Just because she sees and understands why people are interpreting the piece the way they did does not mean that she has to whole heartedly agree with their point of view. She also does not need to apologize for something someone else wrote.

    If anyone who's so quick to hurl insults invested more time in trying to explain their point of view to Jennifer(the blogger) and the other people here who don't agree with this being a racist piece, we might be getting some where. It shouldn't be about who one-upped the last person with a sassier comment. If you were truly concerned with educating anyone you wouldn't come in with insults being your only tool.

    Even after you do explain your POV to other people they are not required to change their own. They can still disagree with it and understand where you're coming from. Resorting to calling people 'typical whiny white women' with 'dumb ass causes' and 'snowflakes'(be the meaning delicate or white) is automatically going to turn people on the defensive.

    Read everything and take it all in. Don't just skim over searching for the parts that might offend you.

  85. Blogger Jennifer | 12:42 PM |  

    Tzarina,

    Sarahbear saved me the trouble of posting since she said exactly what I would have.

  86. Blogger JudyBright | 5:39 PM |  

    ANGER


    anger: A strong feeling of displeasure or hostility. (American Heritage Dictionary)

    So angry would mean 'the state of having a strong feeling of displeasure or hostility.'

    Mockers stir up a city, but wise men turn away anger.
    Proverbs 29:8

  87. Anonymous Tzarina | 6:54 PM |  

    Snowflake:

    I have no desire to talk to you anyway, so let's see if Sarahbear is a little less obnoxious than you.

    Sarahbear:

    If I was to post a piece praising Jews and trashing blacks at the same time, I'd get called out on it, and rightfully so. It wouldn't matter that I was saying great things about the Jewish people. It wouldn't matter that I just used a "little part" to insult blacks. Morgan Gallagher has a history of making racially insensitive remarks, constantly comparing breastfeeding with the civil rights movement. She has been told more than once that this isn't right, and she ignores it. Jennifer CHOSE to co-sign on Morgan's message, even after being told more than once that people would find it offensive s well as Morgan's history of racial insensitivity. To say something is "probably" offensive - and even ADMIT that it's "adverse racism", yet refusing to apologize for advocating something that JENNIFER ADMITS IS RACIST further lets me know what Snowflake's opinions of women of color truly are. I go by what she DOES, not what she says. And the behavior she has shown towards women of color is hilarious at best, appalling at worst. Is Snowflake a racist? I don't know. Do I have any reason whatsoever to believe that she's not one? Not by what I've seen here.

    As for Angry Black Jennifer, we both know you don't want to know what she has to say; you just think you want to. But as soon as she's done writing "Lactivism is a white woman's fight", you'll at least see that while women like you and Jennifer sit on your pampered asses, misappropriating the struggles of others for YOUR personal benefit, women like Angry Black Jennifer are deep in the trenches, doing REAL work and fighting REAL battles.

    Resorting to calling people 'typical whiny white women' with 'dumb ass causes' and 'snowflakes'(be the meaning delicate or white) is automatically going to turn people on the defensive.

    I don't think I said anything like that. Your beef is with the angry black bitch, not the exhausted white mother of two who just so happens to be the godbabymama of said black bitch.

    Finally, I'm going to post this part of a post that I found very poignant from Angry Black Jennifer's journal. It is also written by a white woman, so her opinion should matter more to Snowflake:

    I can announce without hesitation that there's no such thing as Lactivism. It's Lactarchy. We live in a world where if you, as a mother, decide not to breastfeed, you get stalked, reamed out, and accused of everything from laziness to child abuse by a bunch of psychotic teamster women for even suggesting the use of formula.

    But their venom has nothing to do with the pros/cons of breastfeeding. Not a damn thing. What it's really about is a bunch of early middle age, heterosexual, white women who have FINALLY found something they can officially declare themselves downtrodden about.


    And on that note, I'm checking out of this fight, too. You're determined to be oppressed, and it's so much easier to just let you be. Have fun.

    Oh, and judybright? If you're a Christian, thank heavens I'm Jewish.

  88. Blogger Sarahbear | 10:06 PM |  

    Tzarina:

    I see your point but I would like to point out that the majority of the people that responded to the original blog quoting Gallagher's writing (and this one) had no clue about her past writings that were considered racist. I did note that Michelle commented on a previous comparison to Rosa Parks. I believe that even though it was mentioned some people missed it because there's a lot of reading here with mixed feelings and unkind words.

    I do not agree that the remark was intentionally racist on anyone's behalf but the writer's and also considering that some people took offense to it then it is racially insensitive, especially if Gallagher is guilty of this type of writing in the past and was informed that people found it to be so. I believe the same point could have been made with or without the snippet that is so controversial but I don't necessarily agree with censoring things.

    I would love to know what she has to say. I don't know what could be any worse than anything she's already said here as far as peoples feelings might go(and she hasn't hurt mine one bit).

    you'll at least see that while women like you and Jennifer sit on your pampered asses, misappropriating the struggles of others for YOUR personal benefit, women like Angry Black Jennifer are deep in the trenches, doing REAL work and fighting REAL battles.

    Without revealing too much of my personal life I'd like to point out that it's far from pampered. I grew up on welfare, living with my grandparents and right now, even though my family isn't on government assistance, breastfeeding my 4th child has been a choice made more out of necessity than out of some notion that it makes me a better mother. I guess by associating myself with the term 'lactivist' I take the good with the bad, as vegans are doing now with the recent death of a vegan couples baby.

    I believe that both Jennifer's jobs are important. Your friend is a counselor for young women and mothers(?) and the lactivist is working with different women in various states to get legislation passed that will allow them to have adequate time to feed their children while holding down their own jobs. Everyone involved has very real needs that need to be met.

    I'd also like to respond to that quote you included.

    We don't live in a culture where mothers who decide not to breastfeed are misjudged for their decision. We live in a culture where ALL methods of parenting are under constant scrutiny from other parents who disagree with our choices. People are criticized for their choice to circumcise their sons. People are criticized for not co-sleeping with their babies. People are criticized for letting their kids watch TV, or not having them completely potty trained by the age of 18 months.

    It's not just the people who are the worst possible example of a lactivist (like feminists) who are making other parents feel inferior for their parenting choices. It's every insecure parent who can only make themselves feel adequate by picking apart every other parents methods and knocking them down for them.

    Someone who is truly concerned with 'lactivism' and the pros/cons of breastfeeding isn't going to pressure anyone into any decisions or make them feel inadequate as a parent for their choices. They are only concerned with being a support beam for mothers who are looking for it. They are trying to make it easier for mothers who want to breastfeed but also need/want to work outside the home. They want to encourage women who are ashamed that they breastfeed and show them that it's a normal part of life.

    I can not speak for Jennifer, other than what I've seen in her blogs. Going by what I've read, I assume that she's not the type of hateful and venemous lactivist you've encountered in the past. I can speak for myself though, and I know I'm not that type of person.

    I'm curious what happened with that nurse who tried to force you to breastfeed your son. Did you file any complaints against her with the hospital? That is something I wouldn't mind getting involved with, making sure that those types of 'lactarchists' are in no positions of power over women.

  89. Blogger Jennifer | 5:22 AM |  

    Tzarina,

    To clarify a point from your last post and from Sarahbear's, I'll agree that what you saw as a representative of "lactivists" certainly doesn't hold true across the board.

    If you'd spend any time here, you'd see that I abhore the term "artificial baby milk" that I do not boycott the companies that make formula (though I'm not a fan of their marketing tactics), that instead of pitching a fit about the free formula given to me at the hospital (with orders that I MUST supplement - I did, but with pumped breast milk) I donated it to a food bank.

    You'd find that I have never said a negative word about a formula feeding mother. (In fact, some of my best friends are formula feeders, LOL.) You'll find that formula feeding is completely a mother's choice. I may not always understand the choice, but I support their right to make it. (I was formula fed, so were both my parents, my husband and his parents...I'm the first in four generations on either side to breastfeed.)

    You'll learn that I did not nurse my daughter. (I pumped and bottle fed, for a variety of reasons.)

    You'll learn that the goal of this blog is not to make people feel bad for their choices, but rather to help and encourage the ones that need assistance with the choice to breastfeed.

    You'll also learn that I couldn't care less if someone shoots me a dirty look while I breastfeed. Truth be told, I probably wouldn't notice since I don't spend much (any?) time looking around to see what people's reactions are.

    You'll learn that even when women are approached or hassled for nursing in public, my response is to encourage them to go up the chain of command seeking a resolution from the company. Calls for things like nurse-ins or changes in legislation will only come from this blog after significant work has been done on the part of the mother and there's still no movement toward resolution.

    You and Jennifer have called me and this "dumb ass cause" web site a lot of things.

    However, calling a zebra a giraffe doesn't make it a giraffe...doesn't matter how many times you call it a giraffe or what words you use to call it a giraffe..

    ...it's still a zebra.

  90. Anonymous Tzarina | 4:10 PM |  

    However, calling a zebra a giraffe doesn't make it a giraffe...doesn't matter how many times you call it a giraffe or what words you use to call it a giraffe..

    ...it's still a zebra.


    You know what, Snowflake? I'm so glad you said that. Remember that next time you go into "wah wah the angry black bitch is telling me things I don't want to hear" mode.

    Sarahbear:

    If you honestly believe that your life on welfare means that you don't benefit from white privilege, you're deluded. Ask yourself why a white person at poverty level is more likely to own property than a black person who makes THREE TIMES MORE INCOME. Ask yourself why white men make up over 70% of child molesters, yet people don't paint white males as peverted kiddie fiddlers. Ask yourself do you get trailed on a regular basis when you're in the store, despite the fact that white women are most likely to be shoplifters. Ask yourself why people of color are jailed at embarrasingly high rates, even when a person of color has committed the same crime as a white man. Ask yourself why Jennifer, who attended a historically black university, receives far more phone calls from employers if she puts "Florida State University" on her resume, as opposed to "Florida A&M University". When you answer those questions honestly, then - and ONLY then - you can tell me all about your hard-knock life.

    Nobody likes to admit to privilege that they haven't earned. I was deep in denial about it - after all, my parents are Israeli and we grew up with less than nothing. It wasn't until I married my black husband that I saw the staggering difference in the way I'm treated when I'm with him and my son (now sons), and when I'm not. I have the option of simply walking around from my family and being white again. My husband, on the other hand, will always be a black man - forever vilified by the press and feared by passers-by. Nobody has to know that I'm Jewish unless I tell them. That's privilege. Even if you were on government assistance, I guarantee you that you weren't treated 1/4 as bad as the women Jennifer worked with. The stories will bring tears to your eyes, if you truly give a damn.

    Life is hard for everyone, but minorities have the added disadvantage of having to put up with white people like Snowflake, who could care less if she offends minorities just as long as what's offensive serves of use to her. Whites like Snowflake write off people like Angry Black Jenn on a regular basis because ABJ makes white people very, very uncomfortable. If she was one to roll her neck and suck her teeth and say "aks" a lot, the Snowflakes of the world could ignore her. But the fact that she's just as sharp and educated as the Snowflakes of the world? Whoo, can't have that. It's better to have the Mickys and the Jennifers, the ones who proudly stand up and defend their white buddies, clucking their tongues at the ABJs of the world and say things like "she makes me ashamed to be black" or "she makes the race look bad".

    But now I'm way off-tangent. I can't even remember where I was going with this point, other than to express disgust at the thought of any white person feeling that he or she does not benefit from being white in America.

  91. Blogger Jennifer | 4:57 PM |  

    Remember that next time you go into "wah wah the angry black bitch is telling me things I don't want to hear" mode.

    Next time? You mean the first time?

    Did you even read the post that these comments are attached to?

  92. Blogger JudyBright | 6:44 PM |  

    Tzarina,

    I'm responding to the main point of your response to Sarahbear:

    If you honestly believe that your life on welfare means that you don't benefit from white privilege, you're deluded.

    First, it's hard to indicate "tone of voice" of what someone writes on the internet, so let me say first is that I'm asking a question, not accusing you of anything. I'm not in Sarahbear's head, but the only point I saw in what she wrote is that even though she is white she had difficulties growing up as well. It's just that blacks don't have the market cornered on struggle, and maybe we "snowflakes" misinterpret, but it seems like you and your friend Jennifer think we don't have any problems because of our white privilege. Are we misinterpreting what you're saying? I'm asking an honest question here.

    Also, I know I'm treated better overall because I'm white. Problem is, what do I do about it? All I can do is treat people the best I can and try to correct injustice when I have the power to do so. But if I simply see something differently (like the original issue of the article we're discussing) then it seems like I'm a racist automatically. You've villified two black women simply because they disagree with you, at least that's how it seems to me. Aren't black people allowed to disagree with one another without being called awful names and being accused of simply backing up their white buddies? What am I not seeing here?

  93. Blogger Sarahbear | 9:57 PM |  

    I guess white people are more likely to own property than black people because of normal reasons like they're a minority so the percentage of people who own property is going to be slightly skewed when trying to compare them to the majority group.

    Normal people don't stereotype people based on their skin color. If they do then they have their own issues that need to be dealt with. My brother was raped by a black man while he was walking home from his girlfriends house on his prom night. Should I assume all black men are homosexual rapists? Of course not. I can not be held responsible for the thoughts and actions of other white people, just like black people are not responsible for the thoughts and actions of other black people.

    My husband works in retail. He deals with shoplifters daily. He doesn't 'trail' anyone but he does tell me about how women with large purses and teenagers who loiter are most often caught shoplifting. The only people they might trail are known drug addicts in the area (typically white drug addicts).

    Is it a privilege that for the most part I get to shop in peace? I guess so. Then again, just like 'Snowflake' Jennifer said, if she observed someone being trailed by a store associate and thought it was because of their skin color she could voice her opinion on the matter and explain why she wouldn't be shopping there anymore. She could also write a nasty letter to the owner explaining her experience. I'd advise people of color who felt they were being trailed to do the same. Nothing gets the point accross more clearly than taking money out of someone's wallet. I don't think that I should feel guilty though for 'benefitting'. Should I walk into every store I shop at from now on and say 'hey, I'm a white woman and statistically we have the highest rate of shoplifters. You should probably follow me around the store to make sure I don't steal anything.'

    Why might Jennifer receive more callbacks from an employer if she lists FSU instead of A&M? Maybe the same reason that an employer would call someone who attended UGA or Mercer before they called someone who attended GSU or GT. I'd assume the college just has a better reputation with the employer, not necessarily because it's not a black college.

    I don't want to delve into my personal life. I was divulging that information because I wanted to clarify that I didn't choose to breastfeed my children because I wanted to pretend I was better than mothers who choose to formula feed their children. I can tell you that if I was to write an autobiography you'd be shocked and crying about the things that I dealt with as a child and teenager. A lot of which I was blessed enough to have God carry me through and sheild me until He could get me to where I am today. I was able to take the good and leave the bad behind me. I chose not to pity myself over the struggles that made me the person that I am today. I cried my river, I built my bridge and I got over it(without counseling).

    Nobody likes to admit to privilege that they haven't earned.

    That sounds too much like the arguements against affirmative action. Nobody likes to admit that someone might deserve things because they earned it and they chalk it up to things like 'white privilege' or affirmative action.

    I grew up in a prodominantly black area. I dated my share of black guys. The only thing that it opened my eyes to was the fact that the black girls in the area didn't like me for it and they made sure I was aware of that fact. You can guaruntee me nothing about my own life experiences. I probably would cry if I heard the things that other women had to go through, but not because it was worse than anything I dealt with.

    Everyone has to deal with ignorant people letting their mouth run ahead of their brains.

    And after going back and rereading the responses, I don't believe your friend was dismissed on the basis that she's one of 'those' black women. Her first response(unless she was one of the anonymous posters) was:

    I sure wish white women would figure out that blacks weren't put on this earth to serve as examples to their dumb ass causes...

    followed by:

    I, personally, do not think you're a racist. I just think you're a typical whiny white woman who takes great pride and privilege in misappropriating whatever group of people you need to in order to further your dumb ass causes. And whenever someone points that out to you - regardless of that poster's race - you throw a tantrum and find a way to make it all about you. Now, if OTHER people want to call you racist, God knows they have good reason to. But I just think you're a clueless bint, and I can only speak for me.

    I'd assume she wasn't dismissed because she's an educated black woman but more so because she came to respond to a blog that she admittedly does not read on a regular basis, for the sole purpose of 'pointing and laughing'. Why should someone admittedly here for that reason be taken seriously?

    Want to discuss why the peice was racist, racially insensitive, or completely inappropriate? Fine. Do it, but it seems like she came here with the idea in her head that bears bite and she was determined to keep poking the bear until it bit her so she could say 'see that bear just bit me!'.

  94. Anonymous tzarina | 6:45 PM |  

    Snowflake, give it a rest. This entire post is all about you whining that people called you racist, even when nobody did.

    Are we misinterpreting what you're saying? I'm asking an honest question here.

    Gee, you think? Please, get OUT of victim mode and stop looking for reasons to be insulted. Nobody has told anyone to feel guilty for being white, and if you do, that is NOT the fault of the angry black bitch who doesn't go out of her way to make you feel good about being a lib'rul white woman.

    You've villified two black women simply because they disagree with you, at least that's how it seems to me.

    I've done no such thing. In fact, I haven't said hardly anything about them, because I don't disagree with them, because I really don't CARE. Your beef is with Angry Black Jennifer, so take it up with Angry Black Jennifer. But DO NOT take something she has said and pin it on me. That is something I absolutely will not allow.

    Aren't black people allowed to disagree with one another without being called awful names and being accused of simply backing up their white buddies? What am I not seeing here?

    The privilege that allows you to ask such stupid questions, that's what. But as soon as my husband comes home, I'll ask him all about the Negro Rituals of Dislike.

    Sarahbear:

    I'd assume the college just has a better reputation with the employer, not necessarily because it's not a black college.


    You should probably do some reading up about Florida A&M's stellar academic record before you say something so ignorant again. Also, in reference to your "I dated black guys" speech, I have no idea where you were going with that. I'm glad you're not going to delve into your personal life, because there are still too many people laughing at this blog entry, and I'd hate to see you top the lulz that "I dated black guys" gave us.

    As for building a bridge and getting over it without counseling, I won't even begin to discuss how offensive your insinuation is. Do you think tht makes you better than those who have received counseling? Maybe you should've gone if for no reason than to gain a little humility.

    Want to discuss why the peice was racist, racially insensitive, or completely inappropriate?

    Not with you, no. Your ignorance is beyond reason, and I wouldn't ask you for the time.

    it seems like she came here with the idea in her head that bears bite and she was determined to keep poking the bear until it bit her so she could say 'see that bear just bit me!'.

    Maybe. But since the bear didn't as much bite as she did cry and pout and whine ("WAH I'm not a racist! I just support racist propoganda! WAH! Mommy, why isn't the black lady treating me like my other black friends do? WAH!"), the point is moot. My guess is that ABJ's annoyance came at Snowflake Jennifer making an entire post (this one) putting herself on a cross because O NOEZ, some people had the NERVE to think that posting that other post wasn't the best idea!

  95. Blogger Jennifer | 6:52 PM |  

    Ok, now you're just making me chuckle.

    You have your next post written before anyone here even responds, don't you? ;)

    I thought you said (a couple of times) that you were done posting here...and yet you keep returning?

  96. Blogger JudyBright | 7:58 PM |  

    lib'rul.
    I assume in real spelling that's liberal.

    U have dun something that no uhther human being haz evar dun.

    Accused me, the Judybright of lactivist hanger on fame, of being liberal. Be proud!

  97. Anonymous tzarina | 11:40 PM |  

    Snowflake, I'm glad you're getting a chuckle, because the laughs that I've gotten off you will last me for the rest of the month. I only "keep responding" to address SarahBear saying that I've "vilified" black women, something that I didn't appreciate. Besides, we both know you love the publicity. It took you misappropriating black people to get this much attention. 90+ points of people kissing your ass must be great. What will you do in June? Compare breastfeeding mothers to the victims of the Holocaust?

  98. Anonymous tzarina | 11:42 PM |  

    Correction: judynotsobright, sarahbear...whoever. One of you said I was vilifying black women, and I absolutely wasn't. Carry on.

    Hey, Snowflake. Maybe if you compare breastfeeding mothers to migrant workers, we can push this to 100!

  99. Blogger Jennifer | 4:58 AM |  

    LOL, if you think 90+ posts in the comment section is the biggest thing that's ever happened to this blog, you need to read the archives.

    No doubting the traffic that you've helped send me though. Your Live Journal communities certainly aren't hurting me links, giving me plenty of new exposure as well.

    As I said, you're welcome to keep posting, I'm just surprised that you're still here.

    June? Oh, I'm sure I'll stumble into someting. That's how it usually works.

  100. Blogger Jennifer | 4:59 AM |  

    Apparently there's no need for me to make these comparisions since you keep offering them up on your own.

  101. Blogger Jennifer | 4:59 AM |  

    Hey, there, we made it! Good job. :)

  102. Blogger JudyBright | 7:00 AM |  

    It’s much easier to stick to smiling, safe Negroes like the ones who co-sign your posts, than to go head-on with the ones who think you’re full of it.

    I'm sure you meant this as a compliment. Carry on.

  103. Blogger Sarahbear | 7:53 AM |  

    I was refering to the sizes of the two schools and their historical reputations. Going from the current students FSU is 3x the size of FAMU. Thus, I'd assume that it's a more well known college. FAMU is getting there though. I did see that it was dubbed the number-one college for African Americans in 2006.

    I found this website for FSU regarding it's academic rankings:

    http://www.fsu.edu/highlights/rankings.html#human/

    If you could direct me to a similar website for FAMU it'd be appreciated.

    I dunno why I brought up that I dated black guys. I guess I was under the assumption, from your own references to your black husband, that being in serious relationships with black men somehow made us more qualified on the topics in this discussion.

    No. Not really, that was sarcasm if you couldn't tell. I was bringing up that I dated black guys to show you how irrelevant the fact that you're married to a black man is. Thanks for proving my point for me.

    In all seriousness, anecdotes about your own experiences aren't enough to hinge an entire discussion on. I'm sure everyone here can have a different account of their experiences.

    Offensive or not, it's the truth. Not that it makes me a better person, but that I just didn't need it. Your insinuations that my 'hard-knock' life was any less of a struggle because I am a benefit of white privilege were offensive. People do have breaking points, where they get sick of repeating themselves. You found my moment of sassy in the entire post, ignoring the rest of it, because you're here to argue. Only looking for that which offends you.

    Not with you, no. Your ignorance is beyond reason, and I wouldn't ask you for the time.

    Exactly, so why are you still here? We're all ignorant snowflakes and we'll just never get it. (/end sarcasm)

    Sigh. The bear comment wasn't to be taken literally. I'll break it down for you.

    ABJ assumes that white women and lactivists are stupid, ignorant, racist victims. She comes here, with her mind already made up about what we are. She makes her comments with the intent to get that very type of reaction out of them and continues to do so until she gets the desired reaction. Now she can say 'see, I told you so.' to everyone at her LJ when she writes her oh so enlightening peice about white women and lactivism.

    My guess is that ABJ's annoyance came at Snowflake Jennifer making an entire post (this one) putting herself on a cross because O NOEZ, some people had the NERVE to think that posting that other post wasn't the best idea!

    ABJ's comments (that I quoted) were from the original post that included Gallagher's writings. 3 days before 'SJ' made her second blog in response to the name calling. So your guess is wrong. She came here annoyed, no one made her that way.

  104. Anonymous tzarina | 11:20 PM |  

    Sarahbear:

    If you could direct me to a similar website for FAMU it'd be appreciated.

    Is Google broken on your computer?

    No. Not really, that was sarcasm if you couldn't tell. I was bringing up that I dated black guys to show you how irrelevant the fact that you're married to a black man is. Thanks for proving my point for me.

    You had a point there? Really? Are you sure?

    ABJ assumes that white women and lactivists are stupid, ignorant, racist victims.

    What in the hell are you talking about about? Now you're just lying. She absolutely does not think that, has said nothing to the effect and has yet to call anyone a racist, and she certain hasn't said anything about ALL white women.

    Now she can say 'see, I told you so.' to everyone at her LJ when she writes her oh so enlightening peice about white women and lactivism.

    Actually, it was very enlightening, 100% on point and very well-received from mothers of all races, including plenty of white, breastfeeding mothers who cringe at mothers like Snowflake and even lactivists who apologized on Snowflake's behalf, saying that no, they're not all like her (and you). ABJ is a very talented writer, in case you missed the memo. In the real world, you can still make it w/o having to assimilate as long as you're extraordinary.

    So your guess is wrong.

    No, it's not.

    Sorry for the late reply; I was busy worrying about real issues, as opposed to cruising around for fights, daring someone to look at my naked tit the wrong way. :)

  105. Blogger Jennifer | 5:33 AM |  

    LOL, I don't think anyone noticed the "late reply" as I think they've moved on to other issues now.

    As you said, time better spent fighting real fights than just arguging back and forth without acommplishing anything.

    Nice to see though that we continue to find a few things to agree about...namely:

    In the real world, you can still make it w/o having to assimilate as long as you're extraordinary.

  106. Anonymous tzarina | 4:56 PM |  

    You just remember that the next time you're all butt hurt because the coloreds are making fun of you, as opposed to staying in their place.

    Cheers!

  107. Blogger Jennifer | 7:48 PM |  

    "butt hurt?"

    What in the world is "butt hurt?"

    I mean I can imagine, but not anything in the context of this thread. LOL

    I can only assume that you think I fell on my rear here.

    If so, and if that makes you feel better, well, it's ok by me. I've got some good padding back there. :)

  108. Blogger JudyBright | 9:03 AM |  

    I wanna be the last in this thread too, ok?

    butt hurt. bwahahahahahahah

    I think it may mean something else though Jen. eek.

  109. Blogger Lissette | 12:21 PM |  

    "ASKING A WOMAN TO LEAVE BECAUSE SHE IS BREASTFEEDING IS JUST AS ABOMINABLE AS ASKING A WOMAN TO LEAVE BECAUSE SHE IS BLACK. In this day and age, neither of those things should be allowed to dictate whether or not a person has rights based on someone else's sensitivity levels. THAT is the comparison. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS."

    No, it ISN'T! Ah, the cluelessness astounds.

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