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Who the Heck Gets to Define Discreet?

Looking for The Lactivist? She's retired. But you CAN still find Jen blogging. These days, she's runs A Flexible Life. Join her for life, recipes, projects and the occasional rant.

Tuesday, February 20, 2007

(I'm feeling a little ranty today, so you're going to see two ranty posts in a row.)

I've been thinking a bit on this whole "I don't care if moms breastfeed in public, I just think they should be discreet" thing lately. I've heard this line several times both on TV interviews and in news stories, usually from someone responding to legislation moving through various states in an attempt to provide moms and babies a bit more protection when it comes to meal time.

Here's my issue with this topic. Who in the world gets to define what is and isn't "discreet."

The problem with writing "discreet" requirements into laws is that you also have to define the very meaning of discreet. My friend Judy pointed out that it would probably go something like this:

...not revealing more breast than is necessary to comfortably feed the child, yet not placing undue burden to completely conceal the breast/nipple.

(Note: it's not that Judy thinks this is how it should be, simply that this is how some legislator would probably write it.)

But think about it...even if you legally define "discreet" with a phrase like that, you're still left with so much grey area as to make it worthless. After all, how much breast is "necessary" to comfortably feed the child? An inch? Two inches? 20% of the surface area of the breast? Also, since I'm a DD cup, do I get to show more than my friend Cara who is, at best, a B cup? What qualifies as an "undue burden" in terms of concealing the breast or nipple?

Emmitt likes to grab hold of the edge of my shirt and then throw his fist in the air. (As in "hey world!!! Look!!! Mom's FEEDING ME!!!) Do I need to tie his hands to his legs to keep him from doing that? Personally, I'd say that would qualify as undue burden.

What if discreet means "put a blanket over that kid's head" to one person and "don't take your top off" to another? Which one wins? Because if the answer is "only a judge can decide" then we're right back where we started.

I'm really trying to understand where people are coming from on this one because again, I have never in my entire life seen any part of a woman's breast while she nursed in public. Even at the nurse-in I attended at Port Columbus, I didn't see ANY breast while the moms were nursing. Granted, I didn't spent a lot of time staring at their chests...but still. I just don't get it. I just don't get the need to say "sure you can nurse in public, but only if you do it MY way."

So my question to readers is this...

Do you support language that requires a mom to be discreet? If so, why? What do YOU personally define as discreet?


  1. Anonymous Anonymous | 3:50 PM |  

    I like the Michigan law exempting breastfeeding from the public nudity statute. It expressly states that public nudity doesn't include breastfeeding whether or not the nipple or areola is exposed during or incidental to the feeding. If only every law were so explicit (no pun intended)....

  2. Anonymous Anonymous | 4:17 PM |  

    No, I wouldn't support that. It's ridiculous. I should be able to feed my babies wherever and however I want. I try to cover up as best I can without using a blanket. I usually won't tandem nurse them (I have twins) in public. I don't want my boobs hanging out, but my boys love to grab the edge of my shirt lift. Would they punish me for something my six months old did?

  3. Blogger Darlene | 4:40 PM |  

    Believe it or not, I totally agree with you. To even THINK about codifying the term 'discreet' would put bfing women on the slippery slope (sorry, couldn't resist) toward going backwards and defining when and where we can bf. The current legislation that basically gives women the right to bf wherever and whenever was hard-won and should not be surrendered. That sounds strange from the co-founder of a company that manufactures nursing covers but we both agree that women DON'T have to cover up--we just want to be there if they want to. It would be a much more sane world when this discussion isn't necessary. Every effort should be made to discourage any legislation that would define 'discreet'. What a mess that would be! (hey, maybe I can sue them since we use that word in our advertising! *giggle*)

  4. Blogger Tanya | 5:50 PM |  

    I have never seen a woman NOT try to be discreet when NIP. It's ridiculous that we have to even have legislation on something that is entirely natural!

  5. Blogger Mama Seoul | 12:29 AM |  

    I don't think that the term "discreet" should be used in legislation, that just leaves the door open to harass nursing mothers.

    I think that when most people say "as long as she's discreet" they mean "use a blanket". My son is a furnace and sweats like crazy if I use a blanket unless it is really cold. He is now in the annoying nurse-for- a- few-seconds-then-pull-away phase. Nursing mothers need to be able to relax and not worry about getting arrested or ticketed if their babies expose them.

  6. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 6:11 AM |  

    Cairo Mama, it totally blows my mind that most people would define "discreet" as using a blanket or cover. I just don't get that.

    If I had to define it, I'd define "discreet" as pulling your shirt down close to (but not covering) baby's nose while nursing. That's it. I don't care if it's a nursing top, if you've got "side coverage" etc... just pulling the corner of the shirt down.

    Then again, I'm probably defining it that way because that's how I nurse. I have some nursing tops, but I've found that it's a heck of a lot quicker (and just as discreet) to simply pull my shirt down to his nose.

    That said, what the HECK is with the pulling off every four seconds thing? Man that's annoying. Emmitt's in that phase too...in fact, I've got an upcoming post planned on Nursing ADD. :)

  7. Blogger Mama Seoul | 7:27 AM |  

    I agree with your definition of discretion, but I think that people who say,"Breastfeeding in public is o.k. as long as the mother is discreet." are often grossed out by nursing and want the mother to use a blanket. I think seeing the baby's mouth on the breast is disgusting to some people and it is less about the amount of breast shown and more about witnessing an intimate act involving a body part that has become totally sexualized in our culture.

    As a nursing mom, of course I don't agree, but I think that explains why some people are o.k. with major cleavage in a beer commercial and not o.k. with nursing in public. Pretty twisted.

  8. Blogger ContentWorth | 7:55 AM |  

    No, I don;t support the "legal language", it's too broad. It's meaningless.

    I've never seen a breast in public due to nursing. Heck, go to a night club or bar and there's more exposed for less cause!

    I nurse in public as needed. I've nursed in so many parking lots and parks I can't count. The only breast ever shown is if my son pulls on my shirt or gets fussy right at latch on. Who's to determine if that slight flash of breast is indecent or if I'm not doing enough to prevent it?

    This goes along with a lot of legislation angled against women. Really folks, if you have a problem with it DON"T LOOK! I don't stare when you eat, even when you're not discreet (and believe me some of you should be: mouths open, food falling out).

    Defining discretion is too open ended. I've never seen a mother trying to show her breasts while nursing. Maybe some folks should stop trying to see them. Place the law on ooglers, not nursing mothers!

  9. Anonymous Anonymous | 9:11 AM |  

    It's ridiculous. Hasn't anyone ever heard of turning the other way? If it bothers you, don't look!!!!

  10. Blogger a suburban housewife | 1:40 PM |  

    I would have to say discreet would mean everything but nursing naked from the waist up. And I have had to do that at a wedding before. I had on a sheath-type dress (wasn't thinking, clearly)and had to nurse. So I found a comfy room, locked the door, and took off my dress. I literally sat in a chair with my stockings and half slip and nursed my baby. My sis-in-law joined me and we had a good laugh!!

  11. Anonymous Anonymous | 7:38 AM |  

    I agree with Tanya. Where have you ever seen a breastfeeding woman purposefully trying to expose herself? If anyone even tried to suggest to me to cover my baby with a blanket would get so much rage, they'd think twice before saying that to anyone again. The whole discreet thing shouldn't even be mentioned in any legislature. Unless the mother is mentally ill, she is going to be as discreet as she's comfortable with in public.

  12. Blogger JudyBright | 9:34 AM |  

    A little balance here:

    The law is for everyone, not just breastfeeding moms. While you may be reasonable and expose only what is necessary to feed your child, it is still possible that others are not so reasonable. Some laws meant to protect reasonable BFers may unintentionally protect others who are not.

    Most of the world is not raising children of BFing age. They're in public too. If a woman goes topless or flops a boob out to breastfeed then I don't think it's outrageous for someone to ask her to be discreet. Why is that so unreasonable?

  13. Blogger mcherm | 9:47 AM |  

    I think that there should not be any burden on the nursing mother to be "discrete". What possible purpose could it serve? Are the legislators afraid women will "pretend" to be nursing in order to flagrantly violate public nudity laws? Our legal system is perfectly capable of distinguishing intent, so I have no fear of hoards of mothers prancing around around shirtless in public and getting away with it by claiming they're "nursing". To be honest, I wasn't really afraid of that in the first place.

  14. Blogger sajmom | 9:57 AM |  

    I actually have seen a woman who appeared to be purposely exposing flesh. It was at MusicFest, a big festival with large crowds. It seemed like she was trying to make eye contact with people and literally had her whole breast hanging out. If I remember correctly it was an older child nursing. As an extended breastfeeder I wasn't offended but I can imagine the response of some of the people passing by. That is the only time I've ever seen a woman appear to try purposely to be seen. I'm in PA and I've received several disgusted looks from people for nursing a baby with no skin exposed. In my experience people aren't very tolerant of public breastfeeding here so who knows....maybe that woman had just been yelled at so she decided to really make a show? You never know.....The crowds were rather thick so many people would have passed by without seeing her. There were places provided for nursing and changing your baby. Which is nice, but then that makes you feel as though you must go there to nurse(not always conveniant with a small hungry person). I don't like to feel as though I must be banished to feed my child. I do like that Michigan law, that sounds great. I just thought I'd mention that apparently it can happen (a woman purposely exposing flesh.

  15. Blogger Unknown | 10:09 AM |  

    csara has it, there's nobody forcing passers-by to stare at your breast, if they do that's their problem.

    Defining "discreet" would be tricky for my wife - she's a double-H (or "hubba-hubba" as I like to call it)!

    That said, my wife has become quite adept at keeping minimal flesh showing while bf'ing in public.

  16. Blogger * | 11:05 AM |  

    Hell NO.

    Having to mention the term discreet implies there are nursing moms going around flashing people for kicks or are trying to NOT be discreet. Most moms are trying to be discreet (I'd say ALL, but I suppose it's THEORETICALLY possible that ONE mom out there is not trying to be).

    I had a hard time with breastfeeding period. If a woman a child have actually managed to successfully breastfeed then let them go about their business. I cannot imagine having a blanket over a baby and the baby being comfortable - it gets hot under there. I certainly understand the various reasons for doing so, but I don't think someone should HAVE to do that. Only if they want to.

    And as many moms have already mentioned, what about when they get to that stage where they are pulling off every 5 seconds. Are you going to hassle a woman because her child chooses to pull off?

    Sorry - I guess I am ranting, too. I am shy myself about NIP, but I think every woman should have the right to do so.

  17. Blogger Velcromom | 8:03 PM |  

    Language defining "discreet" has no place in breastfeeding legislation. It's far too subjective.

    My ds used to say, "Big milk, mama!" and lift my shirt as high as he could. A blanket or cover would have been given the same treatment. Ironically, the area exposed by ds was the same area that is revealed by wearing a tank top or bathing suit. Wow, call the lawmakers.

    The event that people seem to be afraid of occurs primarily in their own minds. I've never seen a woman in public drop her shirt or go dual nipples to the wind to nurse a baby.

  18. Anonymous Anonymous | 5:36 PM |  

    I have had a huge issue with this lately because I am becoming increasingly annoyed with people and society here and breastfeeding in public. I breastfeed my son (4months old) in public. I go everywhere with him...the mall, restaurants, the park, everywhere. I was asked in a restaurant if I wanted a blanket to put over his head so "I" could be more comfortable and I asked if they would like to put one over their head while eating so they could be more comfortable! I was also asked in a fast food establishment if I would mind going to the bathroom to feed and I asked them if they would mind eating their chicken sandwich on a dirty public toilet. Most of the time that shuts people up but it irks me to think I even have to go that far! Some places here (in Hampton Roads VA) have nursing rooms which I like to use. Big comfy couches and chairs with reading materials and a small sink/clean up station and baby changing table. I think these would be fantastic in all malls and if restaurants really wanted to score points with me, I would love to have something similar there as well.

  19. Blogger Jesica | 11:03 AM |  

    I'm brand-new to the site and enjoying it very much. I came because I was outraged by how nursing moms are being treated in public. Barbara Walters, of all people, astounds me with her puritanical attitude, and has utterly lost my respect.

    Saying you support public nursing but that you want bfing mothers to "be discreet" sounds reasonable only at first blush (ahem). I used to think that myself, and frankly, before I became a mom, seeing a woman nursing in public would probably have made me a little uncomfortable. Why? Simply because it was all new to me. I live in rural Pennsylvania, and people here are not open to such things. Actually, I don't know if I ever SAW public nursing, period, until the past few years. I had barely ever even seen private nursing! My friends and sisters in law had babies before I did, and most of them never nursed in front of me, even in private homes. Not a one of them would ever have done it in "mixed company" during a party or family gathering, "discreet" blanket or no blanket. Nursing meant you left the room to avoid offending fathers and brothers and male relatives/friends, period.

    But, live and learn, yes? The irony is that I am now, to my complete amusement, considered a minor radical because I had my son with midwives (no doctor), did natural childbirth, and am early potty training him. AND -- gasp -- he is now 15 months old and, to the consternation of many people, yes, "still" being breastfed. I broke barriers even in our family, politely, mind you -- and received support from the guys -- by feeding my son under a blanket with everyone around. But I knew I was skating a fine line in not making them sqirm. They're wonderful guys, but God, that's a shame, isn't it? Since the baby's gotten older, I leave the room, because of course he'd "expose" me in a second. I just can't quite risk that with my father-in-law in the room. Coward, huh?! ;) It truly wouldn't bother me; my policy there is purely for his sake.

    But -- another irony -- I'd do a public nurse-in in a minute if there was one close by. Please don't point out to me that there is perhaps some hypocrisy at work in my psyche because of this. I'm working on it. I love the guys in my family but I think they should "see" in-home and public breastfeeding -- that everyone should. Including children of all ages. That's the only way we'll ever teach people not to flip out over it. Older women, strangely, also seem quite offended by it many times, and that to me is both sad and ridiculous. (See Barbara Walters again, who just SO ought to know better!)

    Of course, I now feel a little ashamed to say that public nursing would EVER have startled me. But I would never, ever, even at my most naive, have stared or been rude or unkind to any mom doing it. I'd just have thought she was terrifically brave. Given today's climate of hostility, I still think so. I love seeing bfing moms in public, and I make it a point, if they seem open, to smiling, saying hello, complimenting them on how beautiful the baby is, or whatever. I just want them to know I find what they're doing the most beautiful, natural sight.

    We live in a culture that acts like breastfeeding is not only a private thing (like sex or bathing), but almost shameful. "Private" is all well and good, but unlike sex and bathing, which also involve the necessary exposure of what are considered personal areas, there's a good REASON to breastfeed in public. And in the context of breastfeeding, people should be able to put aside their juvenile preoccupation with breasts as purely sexual things. Imagine a day when you can nurse on the bench beside the mall fountain, and families with little kids will walk by and smile at you -- or maybe even bring their children over to say hello, ask questions if they want, and witness a small miracle.

    Anyway -- sorry for the digression, but here is my point: adding the "but please be discreet" notion, I think, is ultimately still an admission that you kinda find the practice icky to begin with. It implies there is something that ought to be hidden and that offense should and will be taken if it's not. Certainly, asking the law to define "discreet" in the case of breastfeeding is a bit like asking it to define pornography: judges won't be able to, they'll just "know it when they see it." It would only open the door for everybody to have different opinions and then fight about it, while persecuting mothers in the meantime in the name of the almighty maintaining of public morals and decency.

    I'd love to hear more details about proposed PA legislation on this issue. Thanks everyone.

  20. Anonymous Anonymous | 10:49 AM |  

    Wow, Jesica said it really well. Adding the 'discreet' clause just reinforces the idea that there is something to be hidden or covered up and that people who see public breastfeeding are right to be offended. Of course breastfeeding mamas are going to be discreet, we aren't breastfeeding to satisfy some sicko urge to expose our breasts in pubic (like so many girls gone wild), we're doing it to feed our babies. I personally do get a little embarrassed when my daughter does her pull off and whine routine and I try my best to stay covered, but it's just not always feasible. I get resentful that I'm mdae to feel embarrased, but hopefully with more experience I'll get more used to it and be able to laugh it off.

  21. Blogger The Mad Hitter | 11:17 AM |  

    As social animals, we do many silly, stupid, uncomfortable, unnecessary, pointless things to be polite. Should we legislate and codify manners? I would hope not. On the other hand, should we expect others to be immediately at ease with our excretions (of any kind) or nudity? I don't think that's reasonable either.

    People are people, and we all come with weird preferences and hang-ups. It just so happens that NIP is a relatively prevalent peeve, for better or worse.

    If you want to be polite and considerate to those around you, I say use a cover--if possible. If not, and if you are confronted, apologize for the faux pas and politely explain that, "This is the only way that I can effectively take care of my child's needs. I regret your discomfort, but I appreciate your understanding."

    However, if you want to make yourself out as a belligerent zealot, then by all means insist on your rights and tell the waiter to eat in the restroom with a towel over his head. I doubt that you'll be doing much to persuade others that breast feeding is a positive practice. Rather, you might paint it as an odd prerogative of the unsophisticated, rude, and confrontational.

  22. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 11:30 AM |  

    Jonathon, why is it that the mother that is doing what is right and natural and best for her baby must apologize to the person that's oggling her?

    Why is it only the nursing mother that must "suck it up" and make others comfortable?

    Why should the person that doesn't want to see nursing in public not do the polite and civil thing and simply look the other way?

    Sorry, I just don't see the logic of your post...

    People are offended by a lot of things. That doesn't always mean that those things should be hidden.

  23. Blogger The Mad Hitter | 12:23 PM |  

    Why apologize?

    Do you say, "excuse me" after belching out loud? What for? It's the right thing to do, it's natural, and it's the best thing for your health!

  24. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 12:32 PM |  

    Shall I start apologizing before I feed my child with a bottle?

    Just trying to see where the line ends here.

    If you're going to "require" this apology from all moms who feed their children, I can at least feel that you are consistent, whether I agree with you or not.

  25. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 12:33 PM |  

    To note, bleching is considered rude in this culture.

    I was not aware that a child eating was considered rude.

    Now if Emmitt burbs after I nurse him, I'll be happy to apologize on his behalf. ;)

    You also didnt' answer my question. Why does the impetus for making others comfortable fall on the nursing mom and not on the other people? Why must she spare their feelings while they need not spare hers?

  26. Blogger The Mad Hitter | 1:31 PM |  

    No, as I'm sure you know, a child eating is not considered rude in this culture in and of itself. Although, "indiscreet" breast feeding is considered rude in many situations. Why? Probably the same reason we excuse ourselves after belching--it offends certain popular (albeit ill-conceived) sensibilities.

    Why does the impetus for making others comfortable fall on the nursing mom and not on the other people? Why must she spare their feelings while they need not spare hers?

    You do have a right to breast feed where and how you want. It is rude to approach a nursing mother and tell her how to feed her baby.

    However, it is even more rude (for example) to demand that a business owner choose your comfort over the rest of his customers'.

    By taking reasonable measures of modesty in the first place (the impetus here), you are acting from a position of well-mannered, gracious consideration. Without covering, you send an opposite message: "Your comfort means nothing at all to me. I am the most important here." And that is what's rude about indiscreet breast feeding.

  27. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 1:44 PM |  

    The problem Jonathon, is who gets to define discreet? (or perhaps you missed the post, lol...)

    I have a picture of myself sitting in the recliner on my back porch a few hours after my son was born. He is cradled in my arms. It's a beautiful picture, tons of people have seen it and all have commented on how content we both look.

    Not a single person has realized (until I point it out to them) that he's nursing in that photo.

    I nurse in public every place I go that my son gets hungry. Heck, I just posted a picture to this blog of me nursing Emmitt in the museum on Ellis Island just last week.

    I've never had a complaint nor a look.

    Yet you seem to think that the only way I can be discreet is by taking out one of those circus tents that are known as nursing covers. Sorry, but nothing screams "hey, I'm NURSING over here" like getting this out and putting it on:


    Let's also consider that even if I DID think women should cover up, many babies will not eat while covered. Would you?

    The onus on this issue is not and should not be on the mothers who are simply taking care of their children.

    It should be on our culture. A culture that has decided that a copious amount of T&A are great for selling cars, but should be hidden when it comes to their natural function.

    A culture that has no problem dressing young girls up like hookers and sending them off to school, but that gets upset at the very idea that a child might suckle at my breast.

    There was a time in this country where store owners exercised their "right" to keep their customers happy at the expense of other people's rights.

    Then great leaders like Dr. King stepped in and pointed out that sometimes, our right not to like what we see does NOT superceed another person's right to exist and to peacefully live their life.

    You don't have to agree with me and are entitled to your opinion, but you will not find me apologizing for being a mother.

  28. Blogger The Mad Hitter | 4:41 PM |  

    Yes we have gone slightly off topic, but I was focused on one of your original questions: "What do YOU personally define as discreet?"

    My answer to the original question is that a cover is reasonably discreet, and also considerate. If there is a problem beyond that, the issue becomes breast feeding in public, period. That is a different issue.

    If asked to cover, I would be compassionate enough to acknowledge others' concerns. That does not mean apologizing for being a mother any more than excusing a belch is an apology for being human.

    I beg to differ on customer vs. customers. Is it acceptable for a man to use a women's locker room? They're often better furnished. Can't the women mind their own business and just not look? There are plenty of reasonable examples where the preferences of a group take priority over the individual.

    Race is not equivalent to eating preferences.

    Our culture should be more accepting, but nobody should feel it's their right to draft a random business owner into their culture war.

    Incidentally, I don't personally care how any baby breast feeds. My only concern is that people are courteous and keep their ego in check. If they're rude, I'm concerned that they're not harming anyone by it.

    P.S. Would I eat covered? Since you asked, yes I honestly would. I only wish my meals were that tranquil.

  29. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 6:14 PM |  

    beg to differ on customer vs. customers. Is it acceptable for a man to use a women's locker room? They're often better furnished. Can't the women mind their own business and just not look? There are plenty of reasonable examples where the preferences of a group take priority over the individual.

    Yes, but none of those things involve the very basic human right to eat.

    Race is not equivalent to eating preferences.

    I would argue that breastfeeding is not an 'eating preference.' Formula is an eating preference. Breastfeeding is the defacto default, much like breathing. It is how babies were designed to survive.

    My only concern is that people are courteous and keep their ego in check.

    Finally, a point that we both agree on. I only wish that it was applied equally to both sides. If people would be courteous and keep their ego in check around nursing mothers, there would rarely be problems.

    P.S. Would I eat covered? Since you asked, yes I honestly would.

    Well, at least you are consistent. :)

  30. Anonymous Anonymous | 11:42 AM |  

    I don't want to see tits in public regardless of what purpose they're serving. Most especially because the women who find it so essential to breastfeed in public are fugly anyways.

    If you have such a problem wrestling with the subjectivity of the word "discreet", maybe you shouldn't be allowed to breastfeed in public, or even have children. What kind of an adult are you if you can't make your own decisions? Any court is going to lean to your defense if what you were doing was reasonable. Again! don't struggle with reasonable. Be a big girl.

    The "Oh! but it's natural" argument doesn't work either. Opium, public acts of sex, violence, and rape occurs naturally in the wild and among members of the animal kingdom, but as a civilized society we do not condone such things.

    It is not too much to ask for someone to be discreet about breastfeeding their children. However much you support and adore letting your little monkeys munch on your nippers, it does not make it right.

    Insistence and zealotry about breastfeeding in public does come off as simplistic, backwards, and rude. Ever get that feeling?

  31. Blogger Jennifer Laycock | 12:01 PM |  


    Gee, you sure showed us with your cliché filled response.

    Comparing breastfeeding to urination. That's original.

    Here's a simpler solution, if you want to bring the need for maturity into it.

    If you don't like what you see, look in another direction.

    Pretty simple really.

  32. Anonymous Anonymous | 3:48 AM |  

    As a new mom I heard it all, and I quickly ignored it all and did what I damn well wanted to. I have told a number of "well-intentioned" people, who have unwittingly and condescendingly "informed" me of what the "polite thing" to do was in public situations, that they should politely mind their own business and not worry themselves with my child or my titties. When they pay my bills, then I may give them 5 minutes for their opinions, but probably not. And frankly, I don't intend to watch my child suffer for food [titty], shelter or anything else just because a bunch of old farts are put off by babies, titties, laughter or any other wonderful and decent signs of a happy life. --And yes, I can call you complaining jerks "old farts"....I had my child at 41, and I personally know most of you are just crotchety and jealous that your youth is gone [or going]. If you weren't upset about it, you same slimeballs would not have chastised me for having a child at my age....but again, you didn't hold me all the years I tried to get pregnant, and you don't pay my bills now. So shut your pie-hole. If you think you need to legislate breast feeding, then you are an empty soul who knows nothing about love....God help us all.

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